<p>MY 16 yo S has recently (this junior year) evolved his group of friends.I’m savvy enough to be aware of why (not my first kid LOL) even though he has not articulated why to me. He stopped attending parties (especially at one girls house) with this particular group.For awhile they seem a little lost but they quickly rebound.Interesting note…the girl who used to have all the parties has now been mysteriouly absent from school for more than a month…and one of the girls from the original group (goes back to middle school) has reached out to him and they will be attending he junior prom together.</p>
<p>EK ^^^^^^^ exactly!</p>
<p>
Nun – my point is - how do you know that d’s friend is the one doing the lying??? Why would d. believe the friend who calls to report the “best” friends’ drunkenness, over the best friend. What does “really drunk” mean? Teens can exaggerate – so it can just as easily be a report that there was a party where some drinking was going on and friends were observed acting silly and giddy… but that does not necessarily mean the friends were drunk or even that they were drinking. </p>
<p>I don’t mean for you to be naive – heavy drinking – as well as sex and drug use – among teens is real and does happen. But malicious or thoughtless gossip is also real, and rumors have a way of taking a life of their own. How would you feel if it was the other way around? If someone reported to your daughter’s best friend that your daughter was drunk – and the mom reported it back to you but your daughter denied it? </p>
<p>That’s why I think it is much better to follow the approach of looking at it as a bigger, community or school based problem. GO to those parent meetings!! Invite your daughter’s friends mom to go with you. Tell her that you are concerned about the drinking in general, and worried about your daughter, without making accusations against hers. The best thing I did was go to our school community meeting WITH my daughter. There were lots of kids there, lots of parents there, NO accusations about any specific kid. That brings the issue into the open, and provides the parents with the opening to talk with their own kids. </p>
<p>One more point: I am always amazed that with all the drinking going on among teens, every parent who posts on a topic like this on the boards whenever it comes up happens to be the parent of a non-drinking teen who is very disturbed by it all. Has it ever occured to you parents of non-drinkers that your kids could be drinking, and not telling you about it? Keep in mind that not every teen drinker is drinking to excess, and there is absolutely no way you will know if your teen has had a glass of wine or beer at a social gathering – he/she may still come home on time seeming quite sober. If your attitude is to view the issue in black & white terms, or to want your kid to stop socializing with other kids who drink – your own teen is going to find it easier to simply not tell you what is going on.</p>
<p>What does “really drunk” mean? Teens can exaggerate – so it can just as easily be a report that there was a party where some drinking was going on and friends were observed acting silly and giddy… but that does not necessarily mean the friends were drunk or even that they were drinking.</p>
<p>Exactly
My younger daughter- and her friends-(15yrs) when they are together- are so giddy and giggly that you would swear that if they were college age you would assume they were stoned out of their minds.
That is just how they are!
( And this is on several occasions when I have been supervising at an overnight/trip etc and I do know that they haven’t been sneaking any substances.)
It is quite enjoyable actually when you compare it to the usual 15 yr old sullenness. In fact it is one reason why I try to do more of these events so I can see another side to my daughter 
But sometimes OMG they are 15 going on 25 going on 7!</p>
<p>What you can do is this. Ask the mom a hypothetical. I did this once. I told the mom what I knew. </p>
<p>In this case, the OP doesn’t “know” 100%, but if you talk to the mom, and say, what would you do in my situation? Ask her advice. I did this for a situation, and ended up telling the mom. She was grateful. But I said, I am not sure. </p>
<p>“Remember, I heard what I heard third hand. So, you know how that game of telephone works, stories can change…But just thought I would let you know. Maybe nothing is going on. Maybe a little of it is going on. Regardless, your D is being talked about as a girl who was really drunk. You know your daughter, I am sure you will handle this appropriately for your D. I have known your D for years, and she is a great girl. High School is so weird, isn’t it.”</p>
<p>If it approached where you admit you don’t know everything, and you would want to know yourself.</p>
<p>What works with my D is being sure her reputation is good. </p>
<p>And yes, I am sure some posters kids are having some drinks. Big difference between a drink and getting drunk. Whichever is going on, discussions need to happen. </p>
<p>Date rape, drunk driving, jail, fights, all kinds of stuff. I would rather my lose a friend who is drinking too much than losing my kid.</p>
<p>emeraldkity, I agree with your points in your “Adults-Only” post, but I also want to say that we as adults model behavior, and teens are going to follow that. If the parents have wine with dinner and then drive, the teen observes that wine+meal+driving is o.k. (Though at least here in California we have the advantage of the LAW on drinking being different for kids – they can lose their licenses for any measurable quantity of alcohol, it doesn’t have to be a the legal limit for adults. So with my d., I focus on that cherished driving privilege, plus the tendency of cops to hassle teens.)</p>
<p>But the point is, if parents drink socially, then no matter what is being taught about brain development, the teen is observing a pattern of social drinking. To the extent that the pattern is one of moderate drinking, it may be a good thing: it gives the teen a better model how to behave when drinking and how much is an appropriate amount to drink. But I think you are kidding yourself if you think that you can have that approach and assume that your kid will accept the kids/adults distinction. The problem is that teenagers think they are adults – and tend to be very resistent to the adults-only distinction as they grow older… and of course the age lines are quite arbitrary. Many of my daughter’s girl friends are physically much larger than I am – and of course some of the boys tower over her dad – and kids are also taught about body weight/blood alcohol correlation in driver’s ed. So it’s not too hard for a kid to do the math and conclude that if they weigh 150 lb. and the chart in the driver’s ed manual says that they only hit the legal limit with 3 drinks… then 2 drinks is probably o.k. In other words, for some kids, the message will not end up being “no drinking”, but “since I am young, I should drink a little bit less than an adult of the same size” – or, “if Dad can have 2 beers, then it should be safe for me to have 1”. </p>
<p>I’m not saying that this is a good or bad thing. I’m just saying that this is how it really works in the minds of teens.</p>
<p>in my situation I had taken the kids out to dinner- at a place up the road from where we were staying and I had ONE glass of wine.</p>
<p>If that affected my driving enough so that I shouldnt have had it- how could restaurants serve alcohol to anyone unless they had a designated driver?</p>
<p>I understand your reasoning-and I do try and model appropriate behavior as well as customer savvy ( for example- I ordered by the glass and this restaurant was very expensive and supposedly known for their wine list- however the wine was brought already poured and not shown to me at the table- I also didn’t finish it and I pointed that out)</p>
<p>I admit when I started drinking in high school- I didn’t stop and calculate how much alcohol I could consume- but it was also before there was really any education about it - in my district anyway.
Now with kids & adults lugging water bottles every where- I hope that if they do decide to drink that they stick to the procedure of one drink one bottle of water.</p>
<p>I do probably half the time when we go out to dinner order one drink or one glass wine- My older daughter who is almost 23- rarely orders anything for her it is probably 1/6th of the time we go out-
since we go out to dinner probably only about 4 times a year unless we are on vacation- it isn’t a lot of chances to model.
I do use wine in cooking- ( as I mentioned on another thread- when I had to go to another dorm!)- but strictly as an ingredient I don’t even usually have a glass.
Both my kids are pretty aware of the effects of drinking- both their dad and paternal grandfather are alcoholics although my husband has been in recovery for about 10 years. My oldest daughter doesn’t like anything that makes her feel less in control- so she is a great model for her sister who I admit is more of a little daredevil in some ways.
She won’t raise her hand in class- but she will go down a blackdiamond run after only a couple snowboard lessons.
But that is also why I search for and encourage safe- ( well relatively) ways to let loose and have fun with out using substances.
For her- playing sports ( great for endorphins)
rockclimbing-surfing-snowboarding- mountainbiking are all ways that she can get a charge out of life without having to be artifically stimulated.</p>
<p>emeraldkity – I’m not suggesting that YOU did anything wrong. Of course there is a safe amount of alcohol to consume before driving - that’s why all states set a particular blood alcohol limit and usually publish charts showing how many drinks equate to what level.</p>
<p>My point is simply that if YOU drink one glass of wine with dinner, daughter has learned that one glass is o.k. Of course you also have told her that it is an adults-only thing… but they are also told that smoking cigarettes is bad for them and is only for the over-18’s – and yet how many teens take up smoking? They are told that they aren’t allowed into R rated movies if they are under age 17 — do they avoid those movies?</p>
<p>As to those water bottles – my son was very insistent on carrying those water bottles to school, and he particularly wanted to accumulate the little half-size bottles. He told me later (much later - like after he turned 21) that he was replacing the water in the smaller bottles with gin – the only thing was that he realized when he tried it that he didn’t like the taste of gin straight. I didn’t have a clue at the time. He was a good student, rarely went to parties, hung out with a crowd of very religious, clean cut kids. But, ha, ha, it was a big joke on mom and the teachers at school at the time. He KNEW no one would have a clue or suspect anything, because he wasn’t the “type” of kid to do that sort of stuff.</p>
<p>thanks again for all of your wonderful suggestions. My daughter has always assured me that she would come to me when she really had a problem, so one of the positives that has come from all of this is that she really DID come to me when she had a problem!
They never cease to amaze and confound us, do they?</p>
<p>I’m so glad I came across CC - you guys are the tops!</p>
<p>This is a tough situation that happens a lot. Kudos to you that your daughter is sharing the information with you. As for telling the other girl’s mother, I would let it sit for a bit, then get together for a totally unrelated conversation, and bring in the subject of teenage drinking. It will give her a chance to let you know how she feels about the subject now and clue you in on how to procede. I was shocked to find out that parents who were in total agreement about zero tolerance for alcohol wavering when their kids hit junior and senior year and they were faced with the issue. People looked at me as though I was the Gestapo when I suggested that families buy a breathalyser if they suspect their kids are imbibing. Nothing like arguing with a teen that their is alcohol intermingled in that mouthwash you smell. if your olfactory glands are sensitive enough to detect it. </p>
<p>My girls chose not to go off and drink while in highschool. The older one hung out with kids who did not drink or engage in risky behaviour. One best friend was from India, the other was Chinese American, and both very serious students. She did not socialize much or “chill” with the crowd. My daughter, was more social and did continue to socialize with those who did imbibe but left the scene when drugs or alcohol appeared. She ended up taking some expensive taxi rides home a few times, but it was worth it. And I picked her up many times when things just got too uncomfortable for her. </p>
<p>My boys, did not come to such understandings, and have caused me many gray hairs from that. I have had to ground them to the extent that my dogs are on longer leashes than some of them have been, and still they persisted. It made for miserable highschool years for them and for me. All I can say is that it is very difficult to enforce a ban of drinking and drugs for teens, having worked on this for many, many years. Short of sending them off to a boot camp where they are in lock up, I am not sure how to keep them dry. I was sure my nephew was going to end up a hard core alcoholic because only someone addicted would be so hell bent on doing what he did to get to a drink. They all did end up drinking in college, none of them had any horrible repercussions from it, but they all ended up deciding that drinking is something to do in moderation only. My niece will have a glass or two of wine with a meal or champagne for toast but that is it. The others will drink socially, but have no more desire to drink themselves sick. But they did have to try that path. I fear for the boys who are now still at home as I have yet to come up with a way to get through their thick heads, to stay away from the stuff until you are legal, and then in moderation. Getting drunk is not a fun thing, not a good thing, can be a dangerous thing. That message goes right out the window as they are with peers that think getting drunk is fun and funny. The reason parents don’t want to deal with this issue is because succeeding is very, very difficult. And I have seen many lenient parents get burned as their kids are not content with “moderation” rules to drinking and go way off beyond what anyone can call safe and get into trouble.</p>
<p>Emerald, for underage drinkers, even a drop, a trace of alcohol will do it for DUI, since it is illegal for anyone under age 21 to drink. Many parents who allow a glass of wine or a toast champagne are not aware of that. Yes, if they get behind the wheel and end up tested for some reason–minor accident, road block check, they can be in court for DUI.</p>
<p>Emerald, for underage drinkers, even a drop, a trace of alcohol will do it for DUI, since it is illegal for anyone under age 21 to drink. Many parents who allow a glass of wine or a toast champagne are not aware of that. Yes, if they get behind the wheel and end up tested for some reason–minor accident, road block check, they can be in court for DUI.</p>
<p>Well I did let my15 yr old D and her friend drive on the beach 
but actually neither of my kids drive really-
And while I am not saying this won’t change- but my 23 rd old drinks rarely & my 15 yr old not at all.
I was not raised with parents who drank other than some beer at a bridge party so getting the girls used to the taste wasn’t something I was comfortable with. My older daughter has told me, that she sees the kids who haven’t ever had alcohol as being much more inclined to go overboard once they get to college- but chalk one up in the * oh well* pile.( it is legal if they are in their own house- but I didn’t even want to go there-)</p>
<p>So I have a question- what do you suggest is appropriate modeling?
I hear people saying that if you drink around kids at all, then they will see that it is ok- and think that they can do it “responsibly”
But then I also hear elsewhere that cultures that introduce alcohol in a family setting younger- have less trouble with children drinking.</p>
<p>I am not concerned about the manner in which my oldest chooses to drink- I imagine she does drink- as when she recently went to portland to participate in their big end of the year party- but I have never seen her hung over or drink more than one drink at a time - so apparently for her- my style of alcohol education has worked.
What I would be very concerned about is if she was drinking regularly/sneaking it. Drinking alcohol in a setting where no one else was- like in school, that would indicate to me that it was time for an intervention and probably some professional help.</p>
<p>"
I hear people saying that if you drink around kids at all, then they will see that it is ok- and think that they can do it “responsibly”"</p>
<p>The research actually indicates that children are less likely to become problem drinkers if they dont’ grow up with parents who are abstainers but instead use alcohol responsibly and in moderation.</p>
<p>One can easily poke holes in the argument that you quoted. After all, most children grow up in households in which it’s obvious that their parents share a bed and presumably have sex and have babies. That doesn’t, however, give teens permission to have sex and to have children.</p>
<p>Children also grow up seeing their parents drive. That doesn’t imply that parents have given permission for underaged youths to drive.</p>
<p>Young people may try to use those arguments to do what they want to do and what they know their parents don’t approve of. Such young people, though, are just grabbing for straws to justify their own choices. Typical teens trying to shift the blame elsewhere for their own decisions.</p>
<p>No one has the answer to appropriate modeling. Because drink is such a part of our culture, that to expect to purge it out of one’s life might be extreme. A wine at dinner, a toast at a celebratory event are such examples. Gray areas are the cocktail hours and the wine and cheese functions where people go beyond getting relaxed. Many schools have taken the hard line policy that they do not permit drinking by adults on their premises or at theri functions if there are ANY students there. So even an open house or parents’ dinner at a private home if it is part of a school function has to be alcohol free unless NO STUDENTS are there. It is my opinion that if you drink responsibly, it is not a problem to drink responsibly in front of your kids, but once you start exhibiting “tipsiness”, drunkenness, etc, you have crossed the line, as you are now exhibiting the very behaviour you do not want your kids to model. Many parents disagree with me, but I do not sanction even a drop to underage kids because I have had kids who will take a mile if you give an inch. At age 21, they are permitted to drink responsibly and appropriately which means you cannot just walk in with a 6 pack and decide that is your mid afternoon drink of choice this summer, as one of my kids decided to do. That is rude–not their house, my house, not allowed even if you are over 21. You ask before bringing alcohol into someone’s house. </p>
<p>I do not have any idea what cultures have less trouble with children drinking. I guess the Mormons and those with zero tolerance have teh least, statistically. But having been raised in a culture tolerant of drinking, I can tell you that they do not have less trouble. They are just more tolerant. Where I lived in Germany, you looked the other way if someone was urinating in the street and no big deal was made of it. Doesn’t work here. Don’t recommend you have your H or sons do such a thing after a few drinks. Also kids did not have the access to cars even those over 18 who had their licenses as the cost of cars and gas is such there that there are fewer 2 car familes than we have , 3 car is very rare unless the kid is working a well paying job and is usually much older than 21. Also there is much more available public transportation. So it is unlikely a kid will get behind the wheel after he drinks too in Europe which is where a lot of the damage is done. Actually even here, the police in many areas -rural, city will overlook a bunch of obviously drunk teens, unless there is a car involved. That is why the suburbs have more crackdowns. There is usually driving involved for someone. </p>
<p>Each family has to come up with what works for each particular child. My kids were different enough that a one size fits all did not work, other than a zero tolerance, and I don’t even keep a bottle of cooking wine around here because I don’t feel like monitoring it. Most families do not have to go to such extremes. But for underage kids, they are totally forbidden to be behind the wheel even with trace alcohol in their systems so telling such kids about safe drinking and driving is a telling them a myth.</p>
<p>Nun- since you’re friends with the mother of the girl involved, you probably already have some idea about what her reaction would be. If I was in your shoes, I’d tell my friend what I heard without implicating my own D as the source of information. We had a sad situation a while back about a parent who knew that his D’s friend was engaging in similar risky behaviors. He didn’t tell the girls’ parents because he admittedly wanted to be the “cool” dad. This behavior ended up costing the girl her life. The “cool” dad will have to live with that for the rest of his life. When it comes to raising teenagers, it often does take a village.</p>
<p>Come to think of it, I didn’t tell my friend. </p>
<p>The boy’s father drove them home but didn’t have ‘the nose’ after chemo. That dumb boy got out of the car to try to help talk our S past my DH. But DH was in a fraternity at USC. He not only nabbed DS, he nabbed the other boy too. Since we caught him red-handed, we told the boy he had 24 hours to tell his parents.</p>
<p>Something else we did. We wrote to the girl who had the party and we gave her a week to explain to the Headmaster how dozens of 14 and 15 year old students were served hard liquor by her mother’s boyfriend while her mother was out of town.</p>
<p>Anyway, someone did call the Head but she told him the story that my S and the other boy were drinking alone. In a closet. By themselves. An astonishing number of super-educated, super-successful parents fell for this story, a story which aboslved their children. </p>
<p>Lucky for our sanity, there were a couple of teetotallers who told their parents the real story that same night. And their stories jived with our S’s.</p>
<p>A great student and a popular kid, I don’t believe the girl had another party like that one. </p>
<p>A few years later, before we moved, a group of thirty kids came to say goodbye–whilst DH and I were out. We arrived home, none the wiser.</p>
<p>The next morning, we woke up to see miles and miles of white paper towel strewn across the woods at the rear of our yard. Those brilliant students had ‘hidden’ alcohol soaked towels in the trees after a few alchopops shattered on our terrazzo floors. They forgot all about that little thing called daybreak.</p>
<p>We made S call all the fathers, including his gf’s father, to tell them that their kids had been at an alcohol party at our house. He never had another party either…</p>
<p>How can parents model for their children the healthy or appropriate use of alcohol? </p>
<p>Parents can avoid either glorifying or vilifying alcohol use. Education, awareness, and repeatedly broaching the subject with ones kids is important. Beer, wine, and liquor can be enjoyed by adults, in a matter-of-fact way, at appropriate times of the day, and in moderate quantities. Alcohol can have a place in ones diet and ones productive lifestyle, but hopefully not a starring role. I prefer to keep alcohol as a minor part of social interactions. For instance, dinner that includes a glass/bottle of wine. Going to a movie then trying a new restaurant or bar with friends and having a drink. Watching a football game on tv with relatives and drinking beer. In these examples, the main event is sharing a meal or enjoying each others company. The option of drinking alcohol is there for those who want it, no one cares whether the others drink it or not, but drinking is not the main purpose of the activity. The adults understand how to manage their alcohol consumption and stay sober or close to it. In contrast, adolescent alcohol hammerfests, or pre-gaming in a college dorm, or beer funnels or shot contests, while social, emphasize drinking to get drunk. The kids get enough of that from their own peer culture. The rest they get from us and from alcohol/drug education programs at school.</p>
<p>When modeling appropriate drinking behavior, adults can occasionally make sure that any kids within earshot hear them say, Well, Im not going to have another beer, because I need to get up early for work/to run/to whatever, or, Thanks, no more wine for me, one glass was just right. Or, make a comment about not how youre not going to finish the bottle of wine, or how since youve already had a couple of beers youre now going to slow down/pace yourself/have a ginger ale/have something to eat. Over time, this sends a much different message than hearing ones parent lament, Oh, Im so drunk, Im never going to be able to get up for work in the morning. </p>
<p>Examples of glorification: installing in one’s home a large mirrored restaurant-style bar with dozens of sparkling bottles on display. Wearing t-shirts with beer or liquor logos (or a marijuana leaf motif), or giving such items to your (underage) kids as gifts. Telling/retelling stories or family legends of hilarious drunken exploits to appreciative laughter. Displaying family photos or displays of photos that time and again show alcohol use, such as everyone holding a beer bottle. Being known by, and allowing continued use of a heavydrinking nickname such as Dr. Dewers.</p>
<p>Examples of vilification: Preaching instead of teaching. Taking a strict zero tolerance stance, to the point that if your child does happen to become sick from alcohol, they (or their friends) are afraid to come to you for help. </p>
<p>Examples of inappropriate modeling in a family setting: laughing at the silly behavior that ensues when the young boys at a family barbeque are encouraged to drink the last mouthfuls from everyones beer can. Allowing the young boys to drain the cans in the first place. Chugging contests or shots games at a family gathering. Offering a beer to underage visitors. Purchasing or supplying alcohol for your underage children. Keeping an alcoholic beverage at your side all day long.</p>
<p>Much of what I’ve written is common sense. Yet, it happens. Let me add that our family parties quite tame, though it may seem otherwise! Any other ideas?</p>
<p>My H and I have taught our kids about wine during our occasional “special” dinners: formal dinners in the dining room with the wine selection planned around a wonderful meal. They’re fairly knowledgable about wine tasting and etiquette now, and so far (knock on wood) alcohol doesn’t have the allure of the forbidden fruit. But, they also know that we take a hard stance against drinking illegally. We also have a secret “code”, if you will, with our kids when they find themselves in situations where alcohol and/or drugs are present. They call us with the coded sentence and they know we’ll be there to get them right away with no questions asked. So far, so good. But, the pressures on kids to imbibe are HUGE.</p>
<p>speckled egg, great post.</p>
<p>Yes, Speckledegg, some very good ideas there. Something to remind all of us. </p>
<p>My experience has been that as the kids get older, the parents often get more tired and do not stick to their guns as much. A parent who is adament about alcohol use when the kid is middle school may give up the fight mid highschool. Even more just look the other way once the kid is in college, even if he is not of legal age. It becomes easier to justify it as, “everyone does it”, “it’s normal”, “we all did it” rather than to fight the battle. Thankfully, most of the time it does work out. The problem comes if your kids drives with even trace in their system and is tested for some reason, or they get caught with the contraband by an unsympathetic cop and get a judge who decided to make an example of the case. Future law school, many future jobs, college acceptances can all be at risk in this situation. Highschools can take a very dim view of kids “being kids” and caught with alcohol. You do not want your kids spending the last part of senior year at some school or court ordered rehab program pleading mea culpe to his college. But the culture is such that it promotes this sort of risk taking.</p>
<p>luckily neither of my daughters had any indication at all of any substance use in middle school-
They also are not exposed to their grandparents more than once a year- for good reason. Not only because their grandparents have made it clear I am not welcome , but because they think things like a preschooler throwing back a jigger of pepsi , slamming it on the table and rasping “ah- whisky” is hilarous ( not my preschooler BTW)- but because they think my oldest is abnormal for waiting 3 months after she turned 21 to order a drink & because they are hostile to me every since I asked my father in law to chill when he was drunk and harrasing my husband in our house.
Some people just don’t have a clue and I am sorry that my children will not know their grandparents- but my father in law is an alcoholic and often mean before he passes out- and my mother inlaw has learned that it is easier to join em- than lick 'em
No I didn’t realize that was the situation when I was married- not to that extent anyway- my parents didn’t drink- and my husbands parents 26 yrs ago just seemed jovial in a way that my stiff family did not.</p>