A comment on CC (undergrad ranking again)

<p>This comment was posted on CC's Cornell forum:</p>

<p>"It's not so much you gain an advantage by going to Cornell. It's that you are at a disadvantage for going to a state school.</p>

<p>I'm going to be perfectly honest: if you don't attend a top 25 college, you have a really really low chance of getting into a top med school. And we're talking about schools where the acceptance rates are in the 2-5% range already.</p>

<p>You think you'll be competing against boatloads of state school grads. In reality, you are competing against boatloads of MIT, Harvard, Cornell, Duke, Berkeley grads. I had the fortune of interviewing at 13 medical schools, 6 of them ranked in the top 20. At the very top med schools, 3/4 of those interviewed came from a prestigious college. At my own medical school, over 70% of my graduating class came from a top 25 college. So, going to Cornell isn't going to give you a step up. It only keeps you on an even field. When a top med school says its average is a 3.8, you'll need at least a 3.7 to be competitive."</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/cornell-university/944409-cornell-gpa-med-school.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/cornell-university/944409-cornell-gpa-med-school.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Is this generally considered true? Does going to a state school really hinder med-school admissions chances?</p>

<p>Correlation does not imply causation.</p>

<p>Before everyone gets into a hissy fit over my comments, they're solely based on what I observed on my interviews, on SDN during my interview year, in my class in med school, and on the interview rosters I'm emailed every week from the admission's office. If you think twenty colleges produce 75% of the top med school applicants, then you can conclude that it is perfectly reasonable to have that kind of representation on interview days. If you think that the thousands of other colleges out there can muster up more than 25% of the best applicants (which is what I believe), then there must be some sort of selection going on to account for the heavy representation of prestigious colleges at top med schools.</p>

<p>This debate will never end, people will always throw a fit.</p>

<p>People who didn't go to top undergrad schools don't want to feel handicapped when applying to medical schools. They don't want to believe they are at a disadvantage. Those who were fortunate enough to get into a top undergrad school, but decided they wanted to go to lesser college for $$$, don't want to believe they made a wrong choice. Those who didn't get into top undergrad school, don't want to feel like they have thrown away their chance of becoming doctors.</p>

<p>On the other hands kids who do go to top schools, want to feel like they have an advantage because if they didn't have an advantage, whats the point of going to top school, putting yourself through **** for 4 years, and spending 50K a year?</p>

<p>Norcalguy, I understand you go to a top medical school, but would your theory hold true for state medical schools (like Texas state schools, not Cali schools-some cali state schools are considered top medical schools)</p>

<p>
[quote]
would your theory hold true for state medical schools (like Texas state schools, not Cali schools-some cali state schools are considered top medical schools)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Much less true. State schools are very familiar with the regional colleges and thus they know the difference b/w a UC San Diego and a UC Irvine. That guy from Harvard Med School? He's not going to know the difference b/w Virginia vs. Virgina Tech vs. UC Davis vs. UC Irvine vs. Florida State vs. Florida A&M. If it's not a Harvard or Duke, it goes into the "other" bin. </p>

<p>My comments pretty much only apply to the top private med schools. </p>

<p>Again, only my opinion and conjecture.</p>

<p>^^^ No I meant, do kids from top undergrad schools make up a larger percentage of the kids at state medical schools?</p>

<p>I understood what you were trying to say. What I'm saying is that state schools generally draw heavily from the surrounding areas and so they are less concerned with attracting students from top colleges all over the country. I'm sure the top colleges are still overrepresented at most med schools but at least you won't see 60-70% of the kids coming from prestigious colleges.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Correlation does not imply causation.

[/quote]

This.</p>

<p>There are more high-achieving students at top colleges, therefore, there will be more successful applicants from top colleges.</p>

<p>There are fewer high-achieving students at lower ranked colleges, therefore, there will be fewer successful applicants from lower ranked colleges.</p>

<p>In either case, it depends on the student more than the school.</p>

<p>The cooment assumes that all pre-meds are aiming at top Med. Schooll. In reality, most pre-meds, including the very best students have thier own priority list in regard to Med. Schools. For few that I am aware, location is the first priority and they completely do not care about ranking of Med. Schools on their list, they just want to get into anyone, preferrably close to home.</p>

<p>To the statement about all those less than top schools only mustering 25% of top applicants, yes I believe it. I went to Arizona State with 65,000 other students. In my graduating class of 9000, there were only about 10-20 pre-med kids of the quality and ability to get into top schools. And, unsurprisingly, they all did. There is a huge gradient among the sum of intelligence and hard work among students at ASU. Those who work hard and are intelligent do just fine and move on the other things. Those who don't work hard or just honestly don't have an intellectual gift don't get into top medical schools or top schools in any program. Just because the curve falls further to the left doesn't mean that the outliers don't succeed in competing among the graduates of the top undergraduates. There just aren't as many of us.</p>

<p>I am 100% behind norcalguy's impressions and opinion. I have been curious about this for a while and I have been checking out some of the facts. I do not buy the whole argument that "because top hs students choose to go to top colleges, then they end up going to top med schools because they are driven, bright, etc".</p>

<p>Adcoms choose their students and there is a definite * bias* to accept students from certain schools within certain medical schools. Call it subjective, or as part of the fit, or whatever, but I have found this to be particularly true, from the Ivy League for instance. It is part of their "networking". The schools feel that they have ties to each other, they know each other well. There is a certain bond, etc.</p>

<p>And colleges00701, your analysis is a bit too simplistic. There is a definite advantage in going to a top school vs lower tier school, and it has nothing to do with "feeling it". It has to do with resources, with the quality of the teaching, with the labs, with the size of the classes, with the future connections one builds. And that is undeniable. Is it worth 50k a year? That is a very personal decision.</p>

<p>Like most endless debates, the right answer is probably somewhere in the middle.</p>

<p>I totally concur with goldshadow.</p>

<p>Harvard has the highest mean LSAT scores (and I'm guessing mcat scores?) is most likely due to the simple fact that H has the highest mean SAT scores. Heck, it's bottom 25% is better than Podunk State's top 25%. A 3.0 at WashU does much better acceptance-wise than a 3.0 from Podunk State.</p>

<p>
[quote]
There is a definite advantage in going to a top school vs lower tier school....It has to do with resources..

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Agreed, particularly finaid, project grant/research dollars, travel stipends, etc.</p>

<p>
[quote]
with the quality of the teaching

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, not really or always. No one ever accused Harvard of offering undergraduate teaching excellence.</p>

<p>
[quote]
with the labs

[/quote]
</p>

<p>only important for science majors. For humanities/lit majors, Frosh Chem lab is Frosh Chem lab.</p>

<p>
[quote]
with the size of the classes..

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Since labs are small, not sure if there is a much of a difference between a large lecture and a small lecture. (One advantage of a large lecture, is that it quiets the gunners -- those that speak just to hear themselves.)</p>

<p>
[quote]
with the future connections one builds.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Unless your fellow students are on the prof school admissions committee, not sure how this helps. :)</p>

<p>bluebayou,</p>

<p>We are not talking about Harvard here. We are talking top colleges in general, compared to Podunk universities in general. Anyway, I sense you are not being very serious here. The advantages of being taught in a small vs a large class are documented too well at all levels of education, from Pre K to Grad School. Most pre med students are science majors, so yes, labs are important and future connections? networking??</p>

<p>Anyway, like mmcdowe said before- the endless debate. The answer may very well be somewhere in the middle.</p>

<p>I am being perfectly serious. Harvard is just an easy example, but representative of the top xx Unis. By definition (and design) ALL of the top xx colleges are populated with great test takers and great test scorers; adcoms select for them! Few major research Unis are known to corner the market on great teachers...</p>

<p>
[quote]
The advantages of being taught in a small vs a large class are documented too well at all levels of education, from Pre K to Grad School.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, there is no such "documentation". There is only ONE such study that even attempted to measure the effect of small class sizes, and it was extremely small. Even the teacher's unions recognize that such "documentation" does not exist (because, if it did, they would publicize it at every state budget hearing).</p>

<p>The discrepancy in MCAT scores among different tier schools plays the largest factor. Your undergrad doesn't play that large a role in determining med school admissions. People who tend to do better on the SATs tend to do better on the MCATs.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Actually, there is no such "documentation". There is only ONE such study that even attempted to measure the effect of small class sizes, and it was extremely small.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Sure.</p>

<p>Spyros Konstantopoulos and Vicki Chun, "What Are the Long-Term Effects of Small Classes on the Achievement Gap? Evidence from the Lasting Benefits Study," American Journal of Education 116, November 2009.</p>

<p>Peter Blatchford et.al. "Do low attaining and younger students benefit most from small classes? Results from a systematic observation study of class size effects on pupil classroom engagement and teacher pupil interaction," paper delivered to the American Educational Research Association Annual Meeting 2008. "... the main implication of this study is that smaller classes can benefit all pupils in terms of individual, active attention from teachers, but that the lower attaining pupils in particular can benefit from small classes at secondary level."</p>

<p>Peter Muennig and Steven H. Woolf, "Health and Economic Benefits of Reducing the Number of Students per Classroom in US Primary Schools," American Journal of Public Health, published online September 27, 2007. Conclusion. Reducing class sizes may be more cost-effective than most public health and medical interventions, with large savings in health care costs and almost two years of additional life for students who were in smaller classes in the early grades. See also Oct. 16, 2007 summary in Slate magazine by Dr. Sydney Spiesel.</p>

<p>Philip Babcock and Julian R. Betts, "Reduced-class Distinctions: Effort, Ability and the Education Production Function," NBER Working paper 14777, March 2009. Results indicate that small classes elicit enhanced effort and engagement by disadvantaged students.</p>

<p>Sarah Theule Lubienski et.al., "Achievement Differences and School Type: The Role of School Climate, Teacher Certification, and Instruction," American Journal of Education 115, November 2008. This multilevel analysis of National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) mathematics data on over 270,000 fourth and eighth graders in over 10,000 schools finds that smaller class size is significantly correlated with achievement.</p>

<p>Thomas Dee and Martin West, "The Non-Cognitive Returns to Class Size, " NBER Working Paper 13994, 2008. "Our results indicate that smaller classes in 8th grade lead to improvements in measures of student engagement ....Using the estimated earnings impact of these non-cognitive skills and the direct cost of a class-size reduction, the implied internal rate of return from an 8th-grade class-size reduction is 4.6 percent overall, but 7.9 percent in urban schools."</p>

<p>Elizabeth Graue, et.al. "The Wisdom of Class-Size Reduction," American Educational Research Journal, September 2007, Vol. 44, No. 3. "SAGE in particular, and CSR in general, allows teachers the space to create meaningful learning opportunities for students. Giving teachers support to develop new strategies for teaching smaller groups makes it more likely."</p>

<p>Douglas D. Ready and Valerie E. Lee, "Optimal Context Size in Elementary Schools: Disentangling the Effects of Class Size and School Size," Brookings Papers on Education Policy,- 2006/2007, pp. 99-135. Study finds that class size rather than school size makes a positive difference, and suggests that"if children remained in the same elementary school for five or six years ... differences would be very substantial: a roughly 10-point advantage for children in small over large classes by the end of sixth grade, or 4.5 months of additional learning."</p>

<p>Fatih Unlu, "California Class Size Reduction Reform: New Findings from the NAEP," Princeton Univ., Nov. 2005; Study showing large gains from smaller classes in California.</p>

<p>Jeremy D. Finn et.al., “Small Classes in the Early Grades, Academic Achievement, and Graduating From High School," Journal of Educational Psychology, 2005. [</p>

<p>Institute of Education Sciences, US Department of Education, "Identifying and Implementing Educational Practices Supported by Rigorous Evidence: A User Friendly Guide," Dec. 2003. Class size reduction is identified as one of only four education reforms proven to increase learning.</p>

<p>SERVE, "How Class Size Makes a Difference,” 2002. One of the best and most readable summaries of the research, prepared by the Regional Educational Laboratory for the Southeast, funded by the U.S. Department of Education. and "A Parent’s Guide to Class-Size Reduction," 2003. A useful introduction, including suggestions on actions parents can take to encourage class-size reduction at their schools. </p>

<p>Jan O’Neill and Deborah Mercier, "Incredible Shrinking Class Size," National Staff Development Council, 2003 . Describes how one school in Wisconsin reduced class size without additional funding. </p>

<p>Jeremy D. Finn, “Small Classes in American Schools: Research, Practice, and Politics,” Phi Beta Kappan, March 2002. A summary of the research by one of the premier STAR investigators.</p>

<p>STAR studies in Tennessee Formidable results from the historic large scale experiment in the history of education reform.</p>

<p>SAGE studies in Wisconsin; results from class size reduction in Wisconsin public schools from 1997 to 2004.</p>

<p>Bruce Biddle and David Berliner, "What Research Says About Small Classes and Their Effects." Wested, 2002.</p>

<p>Alan B. Krueger and Diane M. Whitmore, "Would Smaller Classes Help Close the Black-White Achievement Gap?” from :Bridging the Achievement Gap, Brookings Institution Press 2002. Cost-benefit analysis and devastating critique of Eric Hanushek, class size contrarian. </p>

<p>Debra Viadero, “Study Links Smaller Classes To Higher Earnings,” Education Week, October 25, 2000
Summary of Krueger's economic analysis</p>

<p>Gerald Bracey, "Distortion and Disinformation about Class Size Reduction."
[url=<a href="http://www.america-tomorrow.com/bracey/EDDRA/EDDRA4.htm%5DDISTORTION"&gt;http://www.america-tomorrow.com/bracey/EDDRA/EDDRA4.htm]DISTORTION&lt;/a> AND DISINFORMATION ABOUT CLASS SIZE REDUCTION](<a href="http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/edu972214.pdf"&gt;http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/edu972214.pdf&lt;/a&gt;) Another good refutation of Hanushek.</p>

<p>California Educator, "Research supports class size reduction," May 2003. What smaller classes have achieved in California.</p>

<p>California Educator, "Smaller classes work - don't turn back the clock," May 2003.</p>

<p>Michael Winerip, "Miracles of Small Class Size Unfold Each Day in California, "The New York Times, October 29, 2003. </p>

<p>AEU Fact Sheet Number 1, "Class Sizes Do Matter." <a href="http://www.aeufederal.org.au/Publications/FactSheet1Classize.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.aeufederal.org.au/Publications/FactSheet1Classize.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Education World School Issues Center on Class Size: Education</a> World ® - Administrators: Are Smaller Classes the Answer?</p>

<p>NSW Public Education Inquiry 2002
Manageable Class Sizes
<a href="http://www.pub-ed-inquiry.org/reports/final_reports/02/19Chap3.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.pub-ed-inquiry.org/reports/final_reports/02/19Chap3.html&lt;/a>
Australian summary of research.</p>

<p>Jeremy Finn, “Class Size Reduction, Grades K-3,”
School Reform Proposals: The Research Evidence, 2002<br>
<a href="http://www.asu.edu/educ/epsl/EPRU/documents/EPRU%202002-101/Chapter%2002-Finn-Final.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.asu.edu/educ/epsl/EPRU/documents/EPRU%202002-101/Chapter%2002-Finn-Final.pdf&lt;/a> </p>

<p>Ivor Pritchard, "Reducing Class Size: What Do We Know?"
US Department of Education, 1999 Archived:</a> Reducing Class Size: What Do We Know?, Table of Contents </p>

<p>Charles M. Achilles, "Small Classes, Big Possibilities," The School Administrator, 1997.</p>

<p>Charles M. Achilles, "Exploring Class-Size Research Issues," The School Administrator, 1997.</p>

<p>Helen Pate-Bain
"Effects of Class-Size Reduction in the Early Grades (K-3) on High School Performance,”<br>
<a href="http://www.heros-inc.org/star-hs-p.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.heros-inc.org/star-hs-p.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>David Grissmer, et.al.
Improving Student Achievement: What State NAEP Test Scores Tell Us. RAND, 2000. RAND</a> | Monograph/Reports | Improving Student Achievement: What State NAEP Test Scores Tell Us</p>

<p>Leonie Haimson
Smaller is Better: First-hand Reports of Early Grade Class Size Reduction in NYC Public Schools,
Educational Priorities Panel, 2000.
<a href="http://www.classsizematters.org/SmallerIsBetter.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.classsizematters.org/SmallerIsBetter.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>People for the American Way
See section, "Smaller Classes Mean Better Schools, Smarter Students"
<a href="http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=4293%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=4293&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The Scottish Council of Research on Education
Does Small Really Make a Difference?
University</a> of Glasgow :: Faculty of Education :: SCRE
Good literature review on the effects of class size on teaching and student behavior.</p>

<p>The National Center on Education in the Inner Cities
"Parents Guide to Class Size Reduction," 2000.
<a href="http://www.temple.edu/lss/pdf/ceicreviews/CEICVol9No2.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.temple.edu/lss/pdf/ceicreviews/CEICVol9No2.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Numerous studies that show smaller classes in these grades are associated with improved student achievement and lower dropout rates. Some of the research is cited in the Class Size Matters fact sheet,
"The need to reduce class size in the middle and upper grades" </p>

<p>John M. Bridgeland, et.al., “The Silent Epidemic: Perspectives of High School Dropouts”,
March 2006. <a href="http://www.gatesfoundation.org/nr/downloads/ed/TheSilentEpidemic3-06FINAL.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.gatesfoundation.org/nr/downloads/ed/TheSilentEpidemic3-06FINAL.pdf&lt;/a>
A recent national survey finding that 75% of high school dropouts say that if they had had been provided with smaller classes they would likely have stayed in school. </p>

<p>C. H. Tienken and C. M. Achilles, “Making Class Size Work in the Middle Grades,” AASA Journal of Scholarship & Practice, Spring 2006/Vol. 3, No. 1, pp 26-36.
<a href="http://aasa.files.cms-plus.com/PDFs/Publications/JSP/Spring2006_FINAL.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://aasa.files.cms-plus.com/PDFs/Publications/JSP/Spring2006_FINAL.pdf&lt;/a>
In a NJ middle school, reducing class size led to a reduction in the failure rate from 3-6% to only 1%, despite a concurrent increase in 40-60 students, and a 7% increase in poverty students,without any additional spending. Gains in test scores were statistically significant with .80 effect size. </p>

<p>Maisie McAdoo, "Is class size related to graduation rates?" The New York Teacher, June 8, 2006.
<a href="http://www.uft.org/news/teacher/reality/pomp_circumstance/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.uft.org/news/teacher/reality/pomp_circumstance/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>What smaller classes in grades 4-5 have achieved in Elk Grove CA:
<a href="http://www.cta.org/CaliforniaEducator/v7i8/Feature_5.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.cta.org/CaliforniaEducator/v7i8/Feature_5.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Teachers of the Year talk about the need for smaller classes in the middle and upper grades:
Teachers</a> of the year talk about class size</p>

<p>Science Central, "Big Kids, Small Classes?"
Big</a> Kids, Small Classes?: Science Videos - Science News - ScienCentral</p>

<p>D. McLaughlin and Gili Drori, School-Level Correlates of Academic Achievement, U.S. Dept. of Education, 2000.<br>
<a href="http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2000/2000303.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2000/2000303.pdf&lt;/a>
The most authoritative study showing the importance of class size is in all grades, analyzing the achievement levels of students in 2,561 schools , as measured by performance on the NAEP (national) exams. After controlling for student background, the only objective factor found to be positively correlated with student performance was class size, not school size, not teacher qualifications, nor any other variable that the researchers could identify. Moreover, student achievement was even more strongly linked to smaller classes in the upper rather than the lower grades. </p>

<p>Harold Wenglinsky, When Money Matters, Educational Testing Service, 1997.
<a href="http://www.ets.org/research/pic/wmm.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ets.org/research/pic/wmm.pdf&lt;/a>
Shows how smaller classes in grades 4 and 8 are linked to higher test scores and improved student discipline.</p>

<p>National Council of Teachers of English, “More than a Number: Why Class Size Matters”
<a href="http://www.ncte.org/about/over/positions/category/class/107620.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ncte.org/about/over/positions/category/class/107620.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Kenneth J. Bernstein, "Class size does matter" , Prince George's and Montgomery Journal Newspapers, July 7, 2000.
Excellent essay by a high school teacher, explaining why both smaller classes and a smaller teaching load is essential to improve student achievement.
class</a> size</p>

<p>Eve Becker, “Size Does Matter: Why I Dream About Joel Klein”, West Side Spirit, May 13, 2004
Good article from the perspective of a NYC middle school teacher.
<a href="http://home.nyc.rr.com/evebecker/size.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://home.nyc.rr.com/evebecker/size.html&lt;/a> </p>

<p>Christian Dustmann et. al., "Class Size, Education and Wages", Economic Journal, February 2003.
UK study showing high school students in small classes more likely to stay through graduation.
<a href="http://www.ucl.ac.uk/%7Euctpb21/pdf/qual01_161.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctpb21/pdf/qual01_161.pdf&lt;/a>
See also Guardian UK summary at: Big</a> earners come from small classes | UK news | The Observer </p>

<p>Many of these are cited in the Class Size Matters fact sheet,
"The need to reduce class size in the middle and upper grades"
See also the powerpoint presentation on <a href="http://www.classsizematters/benefits%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.classsizematters/benefits&lt;/a&gt;..&lt;/p>

<p>Public Agenda, “A Sense of Calling: Who Teaches and Why,” 2000.
<a href="http://www.publicagenda.org/specials/teachers/teachers.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.publicagenda.org/specials/teachers/teachers.htm&lt;/a>
see esp: <a href="http://publicagenda.org/specials/teachers/teachers3.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://publicagenda.org/specials/teachers/teachers3.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>A national teacher survey showing that smaller classes are seen as the most effective way to increase the quality of instruction.</p>

<p>86% of teachers say that reducing class size would be a very effective way to improve the quality of instruction, far above any response, including requiring a major in the subject taught, increasing professional development or salaries, providing more mentoring, requiring graduate degrees or more testing of teachers, merit pay or any other strategy or reform.</p>

<p>Public Agenda, “Rolling Up Their Sleeves: Superintendents and Principals Talk About What’s Needed to Fix Public Schools,” 2003; <a href="http://www.publicagenda.org/research/pdfs/rolling_up_their_sleeves.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.publicagenda.org/research/pdfs/rolling_up_their_sleeves.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Superintendants and Principals agree that reducing class size would significantly improve quality of teaching, with principals saying it would be the best way (at 36%), over higher salaries (35%) or merit pay (25%). (p. 66). </p>

<p>Public Agenda, "Sizing Things up", 2001
<a href="http://www.publicagenda.org/research/pdfs/sizing_things_up.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.publicagenda.org/research/pdfs/sizing_things_up.pdf&lt;/a> </p>

<p>70% of teachers say that small classes are more important to student achievement than small school size. School size only 4%, both equally at 23%, 3% don’t know. </p>

<p>Parents: 47% say class size more important, only 8% school size, and 43% say both. (p.32)</p>

<p>New York City Council Investigation Division report on Teacher Attrition and Retention, 2004.
<a href="http://www.nyc.gov/html/records/pdf/govpub/1024teachersal.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nyc.gov/html/records/pdf/govpub/1024teachersal.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Nearly a third (30%) of new teachers (1-5 years of experience) in NYC said that it was unlikely that they would be teaching school in the next three years. For those teachers who were thinking of leaving NYC public schools, the top three changes in their work conditions most likely to entice them to stay include a new contract with higher pay; class size reduction; and better discipline and safety. </p>

<p>The three factors that caused the greatest dissatisfaction among new NYC teachers were: discipline and safety in the schools (51% unsatisfied); availability of supplies and instructional materials (44%); and class size (39% unsatisfied). </p>

<p>Thomas Dee, “Teachers, Race, and Student Achievement in a Randomized Experiment,”
Review of Economics and Statistics, February 2004. Swarthmore</a> College :: Economics :: Thomas S. Dee
Study showing that student/teacher racial differences appear to negatively effect student achievement, in regular size classes.
Yet in small classes, students learn more no matter regardless of their teachers' race. </p>

<p>Michael Winerip, "Good Teachers + Small Classes = Quality Education,"<br>
New York Times, May 26, 2004.<br>
Excellent summary of above article.</p>

<p>Leonie Haimson, "The 50th anniversary of Brown vs. Board and the need to reduce class size," May 17, 2004.</p>

<p>"People who tend to do better on the SATs tend to do better on the MCATs. "</p>

<p>But it is not becasue they went to better school. It is because people who did well on SAT, prepared for SAT and they will work hard preparing for MCAT. If you take one top pre-med (for example, with perfect GPA) who did very well on SAT / ACT and give him practice MCAT test without preparation after all Med. School requirements are completed, most likely than not, the test score will be very low. Yes, there are genius test takers who are exception to this rule. I am not talking about them. The reason that there is correlation between SAT and MCAT is that both of them are related to how well one prepared for them, outside of fact that some very few people are capable of taking any test and get good results.</p>