It makes sense that you would spend more of your time working with students who need help vs. the very smart students. And I totally believe that there are students needing help in nursing programs, and that a certain percentage don’t cut it. Some barely cut it. I’ve seen their posts on my nursing forum, and it’s disheartening to see how many nurses posting there can barely write a coherent paragraph in standard English. However, I was referring to the statement that an Ivy league capable student would have no classmates with similar abilities at a public university, and that’s just not believable to me, not at top public universities. My D attended a “top public”, and she had no trouble finding other like minded, serious, dedicated, and brilliant students. They might be the cream of the crop there, but they are indeed there in significant numbers.
D1 has a friend who turned down Harvard in order to accept the Moorehead scholarship at UNC. It was the right decision for him and he had no regrets. There are other similar stories here every year on CC.
All that said, however, I’m not so sure many would disagree with your statement above, at least on CC. But there are certainly qualified students who absolutely CAN imagine choosing the state school. These 8 schools, however wonderful they are (no argument there), are simply not the right choice for every qualified student. If it’s not affordable to the family and they cannot get enough FA to swing it, it is no longer a given and one has to weigh the wisdom of taking on significant debt or putting a family in the position of making some questionable financial choices. Not every qualified student wants to move across the country to attend college, as family proximity and connections are important to some smart kids just as much as to the less qualified. There are family issues and medical conditions which might make the honors program at the state flagship the better choice for a given student. Some qualified kids decide that there are other schools which have programs equal in quality to the Ivy. Yes, it’s true. Some professions simply don’t require an elite education. There is only ONE Ivy which has a baccalaureate nursing program, yet there are thousands upon thousands of highly qualified and well educated nurses working in all fields of nursing in this country who did NOT go to Penn and did not suffer for it in the least. It’s a great opportunity if you have it, but there are plenty of legitimate reasons why a given qualified student would choose a non Ivy over the Ivy.
@Postmodern, I agree. There’s a huge intangible in there called quality of life. Many people will borrow an extra $100,000 to buy a house in a nicer neighborhood because of the better quality of life they might enjoy, but they won’t use the same kind of reasoning about college - it’s all numbers, like you’re buying a commodity.
If one of my kids decides to study something that will likely lead to a high starting salary, and they want to take on 30K - 40K in debt to go to a school they love, I would encourage them to do that. Many people here would probably think that’s crazy, but I think it’s worth it if they end up in a place they love for 4 years.
I lived in a different city for a few years, and I remember there was a price point with houses that was very noticeable. A $300 difference in rent brought you from a safe, but kind of run down area, into a beautiful area with great schools. We went for the more expensive area, and it made a huge difference in our quality of life there.
My penny pinching cousin would have lived in the cheaper area. She probably would have been happy there, but I think I would have been miserable.
@postmodern Many of these comments illustrate philosophical differences between posters regarding the purpose of an undergraduate education. For some it is solely career prep with an associated ROI.
Some people (not all, of course) are jealous that they or their kid couldn’t get into School X, so they spend lots of time trying to convince themselves and the world around them that School X isn’t worth it.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, @planner03 . It seems to be the case to me as well. But wouldn’t you think that then they would spend more time advising on chosen majors rather than venue? Seems to be largely hung up on the latter.
^why does someone always say something like that? maybe one in a million would do that…
@WalknOnEggShells I would agree that 30/40 in loans for a great school is doable. $200? Not sure I’d recommend that no matter what. Loans are not “bad” as long as people understand what they are in for. I had loans. Sometimes it’s just not possible without them, right?
@HRSMom, I agree. I think borrowing 200K is crazy no matter what the school is.
For me, it starts sounding crazy way before 200K. I think once the payment gets over $400 - $500/month, it’s going to be a serious burden. But especially in cases where the kid has no cheaper options, and it’s a choice between borrowing money to go to school, or working at a low skilled job making peanuts, I think it’s worth borrowing.
Zinhead, my lackluster interest in Cornell and Dartmouth is personal bias. Although both Cornell and Dartmouth are rural–which reduces contact with minorities, socioeconomic difference, and some types research/work opportunities–my concern is more about the campus atmospheres. Cornell is sprawling and big for an undergraduate, and Dartmouth has a strong frat system that has caused them trouble. For some majors Cornell would be great; I suspect the same of Dartmouth.
There are some majors that I would just not consider paying the premium of an Ivy education for, never. It’s just that simple. Nursing would be one of them. My husband and I have worked hard to provide for our kids, all 4 of them, and we are “lucky” enough to pay full fare unless the kids receive merit aid. Some of them have worked very hard to get the grades and test scores that will allow them to be competitive applicants at any school. Others of them, not so much. For the ones that have put in the work to go to the better school, we will gladly (ok, maybe not gladly because it’s still difficult, but definitely proudly) pay for them to go to the school that is appropriate for them. If that’s an Ivy, then it’s an Ivy. However, I would not pay for a nursing degree from an Ivy because I just don’t feel that is an appropriate use of our limited funds. I have many relatives with nursing degrees - most, if not all, received from a community college. There is just no need to go to an Ivy to pursue this field. I feel it could even be a deterrent to hiring (who needs a “know-it-all” Ivy league nurse?). And as often noted, after you’ve been working a few years, where you received your degree from is irrelevant.
If I wanted a new Honda, even if I could afford a Mercedes, I wouldn’t go to a Mercedes dealer and pay the same price as a Mercedes to receive the Honda. I don’t think anyone would - even if the dealer slapped a sticker on it that said Mercedes. I’d buy the Honda somewhere else cheaper. A Honda is still a Honda - a good, affordable car, readily obtainable by almost anyone.
Perfectly fine nursing degrees can be obtained from many other perfectly fine institutions without shelling out Ivy league dollars. I don’t understand why that would be difficult to grasp.
We know someone who went to Columbia, Penn, and a state school for nursing. The conclusion was that the state school had the best nursing program. There are other reasons to justify choosing an Ivy over a state school for nursing, but the nursing education itself is not one of them.
Okay, that’s nonsense. It really should go without saying that the Ivy League schools are among the best universities in the US. That doesn’t mean that there could never be an instance where it behooves the student to reconsider worshiping at the alter of Ivy. The thread title refers specifically to nursing. I’m a nurse. I know that given that there is only ONE Ivy league school which has a baccalaureate nursing school, it’s not even remotely necessary to attend an Ivy, nor is it a given that no other nursing schools could possibly provide the same level of excellence in nursing education. I know that there are hundreds of thousands of nurses in this country excelling and working at the top levels. If I wanted to be an investment banker and work in NYC, I’d have an entirely different opinion on the importance of prestige of any university I’m considering. But for nursing, it’s not necessary.
So in reference to a nursing education, I would not say it would be a “waste” to go to Penn for a BSN. But it would be unwise to go there if it means going into tremendous debt to do so or putting one’s parents into financial difficulty, thinking it’s going to provide a significant competitive advantage in the field. My advice to students asking about pursuing nursing at any expensive private college is always the same: If your parents can afford to send you there, if you don’t have to take out big loans, you want that amazing college experience and you meet the requirements, DEFINITELY go for it and avail yourself of all the wonderful experiences found at these kinds of schools. But if you cannot afford it, or you would have to go into crushing debt to finance it, you might want to re-think that. Do not worry for one instant that you cannot achieve anything you want to in the field of nursing if you go to a stellar public option rather than U Penn or other similarly priced private school.
@postmodern For us, school choice has nothing to do with viewing education as strictly career prep or not valuing education. It has everything to do with affordability vs. compromising financial stability. For some families the best schools are amg the least affordable options. It has nothing to do with ROI, view of academics, but simple fiscal reality.
How affordability is defined is very different for each family. Whether or not $160,000 is worth the difference for a certain school is not a given except for the financially secure. It really does depend on what $160,000 means to the family. “Difficult for my family” obviously creates different connotations for different posters.
Fwiw, some kids need reassurance that their future careers are not destroyed before their first day of college even begins b/c that day will be at a lower ranked affordable school. Ultimately, a big part of the picture is what a student does at the school they attend.
Yes, I like it! Or build it into the Net Price Calculators
I’m a proponent of taking on some debt if necessary, but people do get completely crazy with it. As an adult, you would assume that anyone taking on major amounts of debt would have run the numbers, but I’m afraid that isn’t always the case.
I spoke to a young relative’s girlfriend recently. She(and her parents) will have around 90K in debt when she finishes her undergrad degree at a state university, and she was talking about applying to grad schools for something that didn’t sound very lucrative. I forget what it was, but I remember thinking that it was a field that wouldn’t provide a stipend, or much of a stipend, to grad students.
It sounded to me like she had never run the numbers to see how much she’ll have to pay back each month. And she was laughing about the fact that she’ll probably owe 150K or something when she’s all done. That’s scary!
When we were looking at nursing programs, a friend who is an MD told us that all the nursing schools have to follow the same program. She suggested comparing the NCLEX pass rates and find a school our daughter liked. We did.
She received her BSN from a state college and is working at a regional medical center. Along with nurses who graduated from community colleges, the state flagship university, Vanderbilt, a local college, and a slew of other nursing schools.
A colleague’s daughter went to a LAC and is now in a post-bac nursing program for her MSN. Whatever floats your boat, and doesn’t sink you or your child financially, go for it.
I don’t know much about nursing, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for someone to want to go to Penn, for example, because of their nursing program. It seems as if they do a good job promoting research and study opportunities. I wonder how easy these things are to arrange at your average nursing school.
