@ucbalumnus Apparently selectivity does not. U Penn’s first time pass rates are no better and in some cases worse than Scranton, Duquesne, Drexel, Penn State, Cedar Crest College and Temple.
"if they do a good job promoting research and study opportunities. I wonder how easy these things are to arrange at your average nursing school. "
- I do not know anything about nursing either. However, the medical research opportunities and all kind of medically related and un-related study opportunities are absolutely anywhere at the lowest of the lowest ranked colleges, including those universities that do not even have a Medical School on campus. How do I know that? My D. was pre-med and many of her friends were pre-meds (currently first year residents) at mostly in-state publics. In fact, I do not know a single one who went to Elite colleges, except among D’s medical school class. The opportunities not only there, but they are very easy to obtain at your college vs summer programs. My D. could not get into summer program and it took her a simple email and a short interview to obtain the long term medical research internship at her in-state college that lasted for 3 years and resulted in great LOR and a nomination to PBK. Her pre-med friends worked with her in this lab also. Whatever studies person is looking for, my D’s in-state public college has a campus in Europe for those seeking international studies, but my D. did not have a chance to go there because of her time limitation, although she took a trip to NZ.
Anyway, any opportunities are everywhere, one just needs to seek them or simply not go by them, but instead take a chance at anything your heart desires.
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The acceptance rate into at least one medical school is virtually 100% from an elite school, and elite is not just the top 10. The national average for a 3.5 GPA and 32 MCAT is 45%, so in fact it does matter where you go, otherwise the acceptance rates would be the same.
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Where is the evidence of this virtually 100% claim? There is a parent here on CC whose child went to a top 5 school and had that GPA with a better MCAT and wasn’t accepted to any US MD schools.
Anyway, the devil is in the details when it comes to the second part of your claim.
Well, I don’t know much about ivies. I live in one of those places where few people would recognize UPenn as an ivy. But, I do work with a lot of nursing students (and am the parent of a new BSN). First, you have to understand how different the curriculum is from the standard college curriculum. While a student may be able to use APs for some of the gen eds, there just just isn’t much choice but to start at step one in nursing, and that’s with pretty much any college. The curriculum, once into the major, has little time for the types of experiences referred to above. Most BSNs should have a semester class on research, but certain competencies have to be met before students can head into the externship experiences. Mayo clinic’s, for example, takes students after junior year. They also have about 900 applicants for 50 spots.
Board pass rates for UPenn aren’t any better than other nearby BSNs. And I bet there are community colleges in the region with similar pass rates. Does that mean everybody should forgo UPenn in favor of a cc? No. This community wouldn’t exist if the choices were that easy. But to imagine, just based on the curriculum and clinical requirements of the major, that the UPenn program is substantially different/better is just wrong. Does that mean UPenn is a waste. Oh, heck no. As pointed out, attending an ivy has benefits beyond what the student wants to do for work after college. Attending for nursing is only a waste if, as pointed out above, it poses a hardship, because the UPenn BSN will not lead to better, higher paid entry points.
@warbrain said:
Well, in this particular thread, we are talking Ivy vs. highly ranked public. Highly ranked publics tend to be large research universities. Many have access to multiple clinical sites; some are even affiliated with these large teaching hospitals. There are so many of these quality nursing schools; you go to the Ivy for the OTHER things it offers, not for the vastly superior nursing school, research, and study opportunities.
The for-profit nursing schools or schools without access to adequate medical facilities and sufficient population would be another story.
I would love to know exactly how many undergrad nursing slots there are at all the ivy League schools.
I don’t think that just getting a BSN is a reason to choose Penn for nursing. The basics are the same everywhere. It is the additional opportunities at Penn to access Penn’s other schools, specialize or sub-matriculate that make a difference for some.
Penn Nursing students can combine their studies with Penn’s other schools and pursue dual degrees, such as Nursing and Healthcare Management, a dual degree program with Wharton. Penn Nursing offers a variety of minors, numerous study abroad options, and submatriculation into seventeen master’s in nursing programs or into the University of Pennsylvania Law School. They have opportunities to assist with research. Students can also engage with everything the University has to offer, such as clubs, college house life, and athletics.
Here is the career services report for Penn Nursing. One thing Penn does do better than most schools is information disclosure on outcomes. I know nothing about Nursing outcomes, so perhaps other posters can comment.
http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/files/BSN_final_report_2015.pdf
@eastcoastcrazy, since U Penn is the only Ivy which offers a baccalaureate nursing program, the slots would be few.
For those that don’t know much about nursing, one can also get their RN by attending a community college and getting an associates degree. The licensing exam for ASN prepared nurses and BSN prepared nurses is the same exam. In some markets, BSN prepared nurses are preferred and it’s very difficult to get into a desirable specialty at a hospital. In other markets, this is not the case, the BSN nurse is not preferred, is not paid more money, and is treated no differently. Advancement usually requires the BSN or MSN or other advanced practice education.
Why is someone who wants to study medicine/nursing or business or engineering always discussed as “some people see college as job prep or both-tech”? But if your interest is history or English, you are considered to be there just to learn?
Seems to me they are just different areas of interest, and non-relevant electives can still give a great experience? I see no more reason to force a nursing student to study Homer than for a Philosophy student to take biology…
They are all valid paths. If you have the $ and want to go, great. If you have trouble $ wise, there are other great options!
"he acceptance rate into at least one medical school is virtually 100% from an elite school, "- Yes, and my D’s Honor’s college was also claiming 100% acceptance to the medical school…and I know exactly how it is done. The program has a weed out class that derails very many pre-meds, and D’s Honors class which had primarily HS valedictorians (Honors accepted top 2% of HS class with ACT=31+) also happened to derail good number of these HS valedictorians. After that, the difficulty level of classes only go up, so I am sure there were more casualties after each such class. Then, they have to go thru pre-med committee. I am very sure that pre-med committee does not get thru candidates below stats of certain threshold. Then, the pre-med advisor also matches the applicant’s stats with the list of medical school that they recommend. And, ta-ta, the ones who survived thr uall of that…surprisingly(??? - it does not surprise me a bit) get accepted and many to several medical schools.
I mentioned it numerous times that before graduating from medical school many in my D’s medical school class actually regretted attending college at Ivy / Elite. They mentioned that it gave them no advantages at acceptance to Med. schools, not any academic advantages and no advantages in residency application cycle. My D. never regretted her choice of in-state public, she was very happy to graduate from medical school loan free and she never ever felt that her academic preparation was inferior. More so, she felt that her personal growth during college was promoted by the variety of students around her. One big reason that she did not even apply to any Ivy / Elite was that she thought that she would be in exactly the same crowd at Ivy as at her very small expensive and rigorous private HS. She was looking to expand her social horizons and not necessarily always be surrounded by intense pre-meds.
Medical schools do not pay much attention to the name of your college, every applicant knows that. Apparently, they have very valid reasons for that…D. and her friends were accepted to top 20s.
@HRSMom, not sure I understood your question. But nursing is a very hands on, practical major, though certainly not exclusively so. But nursing programs typically have as their stated mission preparing students to pass the NCLEX and be hired as nurses. You don’t hear much about people majoring in Nursing in order to simply get an education, or majoring in Nursing with no exact plan for what they will do after graduation. They are choosing that major in order for job prep in the nursing field. Compared to many majors, the after college options for employment tend to be very limited outside the nursing field.
There usually is no such thing as a Pre-Med major either. One can major in anything as long as they take the required pre-reqs. Same with pre-law. It’s a much broader education than Nursing, with presumably more options after graduation.
The nursing field is a lot wider than people thing in this forum. My best friend is a nurse and works as a consultant and I am not sure when was the last time she saw a patient but for sure many years ago.
Same for another friend that is currently an entrepreneur something to do with visiting nurses.
Not saying that your need the ivy degree for this, just that nursing can have some other outputs as well than the very traditional role of a nurse.
@am9799, that’s true, but the fact is that usually those types of jobs go only to nurses who have put in some time working in the traditional nurse role (or as we like to call it, in the trenches). And no, you don’t need an Ivy education for that, but you will often see that a BSN or above is required for some of the better paying jobs that don’t involve bedside care. Not always, but often.
@Nrdsb4 - Some nurses go directly into health care consulting, and many top consulting companies hire folks with degrees from certain top schools only. It’s hard to know what your particular kid might want to do with his or her nursing degree…the consulting route, medical school, or actual nursing…when they are in high school, which is why I wouldn’t judge the college any differently based on the major.
“.the consulting route, medical school, or actual nursing…” - for medical school, getting nursing college degree is not advisable as I heard, do not have a personal experience with this though. And again, for medical school, name of your college is practically irrelevant.
This is just a question because I’m curious–why would a company ever hire nurse consultants who hadn’t practiced nursing? They’d know next to nothing.
“Going into consulting” with no work experience as an RN would almost be unheard of,if not impossible, what can you consult on? A kid who can afford to go to an IVY for nursing, enjoys the vibe/fits in at UPenn, then its the same choice to make deciding between schools. A UPENN BSN will not in any way shape or form elevate a nurses starting salary. Nursing is an odd beast, you are promoted within based on what you put into it. As far as further opportunities outside of the hospital which are growing year to year, if do not have trench work so to speak, all outside “consulting” require patient care experience. Product reps require previous hands on experience, HIM type careers require hands on experience. Ambulatory facility managers require in hospital experience.
If you pull up any RN curriculum anywhere in the US, it would be identical.
Of course, curriculums for nursing vary. They are not identical. Here are three (2 BSN programs and 1 AA). I picked Penn cause it is being discussed and the other two by open Google searches (such as AA nursing) :
(1) http://www.nursing.upenn.edu/about/Penn%20Nursing%20Because/Curriculum/Pages/The-Curriculum.aspx
(2) http://uam-web2.uamont.edu/pdfs/nursing/BSNPrerequisites.pdf
http://uam-web2.uamont.edu/pdfs/nursing/BSNMajorRequirements.pdf
Sometimes, if not all the times, nurses’ boss in healthcare industry doesn’t have a nursing degree. B.S. Healthcare Administration degree holder takes the job.