Why weigh everything in dollars? If kid is doing undergrad and nursing at a good school, they’ll not be worse off than community college/mediocreville state school and mediocreville nursing school combo. There is more to education than trade value.
In long term they’ll be more poised, better off and well connected.
“In long term they’ll be more poised, better off and well connected.” - i would like to know the details that support this statement. Why do I want details? Because my experience does not support it. My experience is supporting otherwise, people who are very unhappy about attending the Ivy because in a long run it resulted in a huge debt (I am talking about up to $300+). I am not talking about singular example, I am talking about a group of people. And I have a feeling that their very unwise decision (what you expect of 17 y o - be wise?) was largely based on statements like yours that they keep hearing over and over including the push from GC who probably was stating the same over and over…which I know all too well as my own D. was also pushed very hard. Fortunately for us, she was much wiser than most at 17 and stood firmly on her own, did not give in. Or maybe I could be proud of my parenting because I always told her not to listen to anybody, but think for yourself.
If one wants to go to Ivy, why not? But saying that there are no consequences for this type of decision because financial side is not important is wrong, it is like hiding something that will affect them for years, decades, unless of course, your last name is Gates or Trump or Clinton…etc. but most people here simply do not have this level of income. As I said, I know many who regretted attending Ivy’s and many of them had high income parents.
Why weigh everything in dollars? Because dollars cost, well, dollars. Which are generally in limited supply (esp when you get into the tens in thousands of them…)
Ppl who don’t worry about money either have way too much money, or someone else pays their bills!
If you are comparison shopping for colleges, you “weigh everything in dollars” as a sensible thing to do. People who have to comparison shop aren’t doing it because they are “cheap” about education. Most of us are compelled to do it because we can’t afford to be “price-blind.” I appreciate the advice given here because it’s practical stuff with real-life implications for the majority of people, except a few affluent families who don’t have to comparison shop.
That said, Penn provides an excellent undergraduate education. If you don’t have to compare prices, don’t! Just go for it!
Miami- someone has graduated from an IVY with over 300K in loans? I’d love to see you cite that source. It seems mathematically impossible. And now you’re not talking about one kid- you know a whole group of them with 300K in loans for a Bachelor’s degree???
We get that merit aid worked for your D. But other vehicles for financing worked for other families (we used a 529 plan, which you claim not to understand) AND it left our retirement funds intact.
Different strokes for different folks. And for some people the need based aid at an IVY means that even the merit aid your D got at Miami would come up inferior. OK?
I’m sure you’d look more poised stepping out of a Lamborghini-- and think of all the hot dates you’d score.
It’s one thing if you can afford a Lambourghini, but going deeply into debt for one when all you need the car for is to pick up a gallon of milk, doesn’t make a lot of sense.
If a family has money to burn, or if the student is eligible for substantial financial aid, then it makes perfect sense to go to U. Penn for undergrad nursing. They do have an excellent nursing program, and they offer need-based financial aid that may actually result in it being the cheapest 4 year choice for a lower-middle or middle-middle income family.
However, for other families, it does not make sense to spend $150,000 more for a BSN when there are many great BSN programs that are cheaper. The students from the cheaper college and U Penn will have the same starting salaries in a hospital, which is where most nurses start.
I heard a story about U. Penn nursing students getting angry when they realized they were doing clinicals right next to Community College of Philadelphia students. Their question was: why am I paying so many tens of thousands of dollars more than they are?
Nurses have opportunities to become a nurse practitioner or other advanced fields, which involves competitive entry into grad programs after years of experience. However, those programs may be more interested in the person’s capabilities of a nurse than their undergrad college.
At even the least competitive colleges, nursing is a very academically and emotionally demanding and also consumes a great deal of your time. Therefore there is something to be said to attending a college where the general courses (other than nursing and sciences) will not be extremely demanding. You need to have some less competitive classes so you can put most of your effort into your nursing and science classes. In comparison at some competitive colleges, every course demands an enormous amount of work. At some colleges, nursing students have to keep up with a class full of pre-meds who are all pushing to get an A.
At a less competitive college, a nursing student will work much harder than most of the fellow students, but the nursing student will still have time for activities and a social life.
To even answer this question, I’d need to know more about how Penn’s nursing program works. (Since apparently it’s the only Ivy with an undergrad program.) How much time do you have for courses outside nursing? Can you take the full range of freshman seminars or whatever other goodies are offered? Will you have time for the same extra-curriculars as students in other majors? There are plenty of good reasons to choose Penn over the local CC and probably over the local state college, but only if you are going to have time to avail yourself of what Penn offers. I would expect that the nursing curriculum, because it’s highly regulated (like engineering BTW) would be fairly similar across the board. (Though I imagine Associate degrees in nursing will cover less than the Bachelors.)
As others have pointed out the Ivy education with financial aid, may be less expensive or at least very competitive with other options.
I realize I am lucky not to have to think about the ROI for colleges - but really I thought it was about the education as much as job placement. Some of my favorite courses, the ones that have enriched my life in the long run, had nothing to do with my major.
http://www.nursing.upenn.edu/students/resources/HandbooksFormsPolicies/BSN%20Handbook%201%207%202016.pdf page 20 lists the requirements for the Penn nursing major. Out of a total of 40.5 credits, 29.5 are in the nursing major, 10 are in general education requirements, and 1 is a free elective. A sample four year schedule is listed on page 25.
Note that 40.5 credits is higher than the 32 to 36 credits needed to graduate in a major in Penn Arts and Sciences. Some of the Penn Engineering majors require 40 to 41 credits.
I took a quick look at the Penn nursing outcomes posted a few pages ago, and based on that I’d say that many Penn nurses probably get “better” first job offers, at least better than my daughter is seeing at her directional state college. At my daughter’s college most nurses end up starting on general medical/surgical floors, not in ICU, surgery, maternity or some of the other specializations. But starting salary for all new nurses is fixed, at least at all the hospitals my daughter applied to.
So what is a better floor worth? I have no idea, my daughter would never have been accepted into Penn, so for us the cheapest college with a good nursing program was the answer.
I work in health care consulting. It’s a booming field as you might imagine. The top companies tend to hire kids from the top schools. New grads are often hired at consulting companies - and nursing grades (as well as pharm grads) would be valued for their base healthcare knowledge. Of course, said grad would also have to have the ability to learn in-depth information about drugs, diseases, or medical devices - obviously there are smart kids everywhere but consulting companies often favor the grads from top schools because it looks good to their clients. It’s the same reason some private schools tend to only hire teachers with degrees from fancy schools - it impresses their “clientele.” Not saying it’s right or wrong, just saying it is what it is.
Personally I disagree and find the above comment just a bit distasteful. There are many people who are not materialistic, live beneath their means because they don’t care not to, and don’t measure the cost of experiences like travel or education in a quantitative way.
This doesn’t make them better people, it just means that not everybody cares what some things cost if they can be afforded.
A good corollary is health expenses. Most people would not measure what healthcare costs for a sick loved one – they just pay it if they can. To a lesser degree is healthcare for a beloved pet – some think it foolish, but for others, it’s not a consideration.
Please realize that some people put the college experience for their children in that category, where the cost (assuming it is possible) is inconsequential.
Does anyone know about nursing opportunities for students with Associates degrees? How about an Associates in nursing and a bachelor’s in Occupational Therapy? (she changed her mind about OT and is now interested in nursing)
You can take the RN exam with an accredited associates in nursing and many people find nursing jobs with only an associates. Some people get a job with an associates and then are fortunate to have an employer that contributes towards their part-time tuition to get a BSN.
However, I am told that there are many employers that will only hire a BSN as a matter of policy.
The people who live beneath their means tend to be careful with their money (unless they have a very large amount of it to begin with), so they are unlikely to completely ignore the cost of things like travel or education (even though some may be willing to spend a lot more on travel or education in comparison to other things that they may spend money on).
It is only the wealthiest who can afford to find it distasteful to consider the cost of something.
Many people spend freely on medical care because their medical care is mainly paid by third parties (government and/or private insurance companies). It is easy to spend someone else’s money (and spending money for medical care that is of dubious value in improving medical outcomes may be part of the reason for the rapid rise in medical care costs in the US). When people have to spend their own money, they are likely to give much more consideration of cost (e.g. the threads where people age 50-59 discuss whether a $200 shingles vaccination not covered by insurance is worth it).
^thanks. Was finding it hard to see how that was “distasteful”…even unmaterialistic people who don’t measure an experience in dollars must still pay the bill.
That’s quite a broad generalization, IMHO. And it was not consideration of cost I found distasteful, but rather the comment that “people that don’t worry about money have way too much money”.
Do they spend broadly on it or do third parties pay? Seems to be contradictory. I am sure you understand that I was referring to out of pocket choices and not “someone else’s money”, as that would have made no sense as an example. You can ignore that one and go right to the pet example if that is less nuanced.
It was the comment “Ppl who don’t worry about money either have way too much money, or someone else pays their bills!” . There are just as many who are willing to pay what it costs without consideration of that; meaning that they value the experience more than the capital. Surely you can understand that without needed to accuse them of having “way too much money”? Do you see how that comment could be viewed as distasteful?
My wife calls the Associates degree RN the “nursing home degree.” Many hospitals require new hires to have at least a BSN. Your D may want to look into the accelerated BSN programs.
Agreed, those placements for the Penn nurses are outstanding, most prestigious departments of the most prestigious hospitals (plus the Teach for America nurse, great to see).
I think the outlook for associates degrees in nursing is very regional. In some areas all they can find is nursing homes, in others they can work almost anywhere, it all depends on the local supply of nurses with a BSRN. At the hospital my daughter will be working at nurses with a BSRN get a starting salary that is only $2 an hour more than nurses with an associates. Which is much less of a differential than I expected!
@Postmodern I think you are just reading not in the context meant.
I meant ppl who just “don’t care” what things cost, not those who don’t value the expense versus other items.
For instance, if your kid gets into Harvard and you value that so much you’ll pay no matter what, you will still fall into one of two camps: those who still need to consider the cost to ensure it can be done and to plan for it so they can have that experience, or those so wealthy it doesn’t matter bc you know you have it now.
Most ppl have to care what it costs if they want to be able to pay.