A question about religious beliefs & church-going

Parent Cafe
1

<p>A question for the parents of CC, because I can’t discuss it with my own without it turning into a scream-fest. I apologize in advance for the length, but I feel like the background is necessary and I am quite wordy sometimes.</p>

<p>Religion has always been a big source of arguments between me and my parents. They’re pretty religious and very involved in their small church, and they expected me to be the same. I was made to attend church and Sunday school every single week without fail, to the point where I wasn’t allowed to spend the night over my friends’ houses on Saturday nights because it meant that I would miss church in the morning. </p>

<p>Well as I got older, I first decided that I didn’t believe you necessarily had to go to church every week, and then I realized that I didn’t really believe in Christianity or God at all. I probably came to that conclusion around when I started high school, I really don’t remember. I do remember that I would lay in my bed on Saturday nights and try to think up logical arguments to present to my parents the next morning, about why I felt like I shouldn’t have to go to church, because it had no part in my personal belief system. These arguments were always met with claims that I would go to hell if I didn’t go to church every week, that I was just being lazy and making up these things because I just wanted to sleep all day, and that I was going because I lived in their house and they said so. Once or twice I was actually dragged screaming from the house. As I got older, it was decided that I could stay home sometimes. It was supposed to be one week per month, but it was really just on the whim of my parents. This continued until I went off to college.</p>

<p>My parents have finally accepted that when I say “I don’t believe in God”, that’s what I actually think, and they have stopped bugging me about going to church, except on major holidays. My own personal opinion is that I’ll go to church to please my parents on Christmas Eve…it’s a pretty candlelight service, I like Christmas songs, and considering we usually go somewhere else afterwards it’s inconvenient for my parents to have to go back to the house. I will not go to church at any other time, because it’s meaningless to me and I feel like some kind of fraud standing there silently…I feel like it’s very strange pretend to take part in the services and rituals of a religion that you’re not a part of. Not to mention my acquired hatred of the entire idea of going to church to begin with. </p>

<p>My mother thinks that church is some sort of big family social event, and while she would really like me to go to all services because it disappoints her that I don’t, she thinks that I should at least go on Easter as well as Christmas, if I absolutely insist on refusing to go at any other time. She tells me, oh it’s only an hour out of your day (except that it’s more like 3). She tells me about so-and-so’s who’s “like me”, and he goes to church, because he is aware of his family obligations. She makes it out to be like I?m some sort of horrible, selfish person because I won’t go just to please my family and participate in family holidays. Apparently coming home for the weekend isn’t quite enough “participation”. </p>

<p>Normally I would like to say that I’m being reasonable and she’s not, but then again I’m the sort of person to jump up and agree with people if they tell me I’m a horrible person for any reason, so I really don’t know. Am I being selfish? She acts like it is perfectly normal for atheist children of religious parents to go with them to church on holidays and at other times, because the parents wish it. Is it really that normal? Is it common for religious people to expect their children with different beliefs to go for the sake of “family”? I’ve never come across anyone else in the same situation so I have no idea. I’m just tired of arguing about this.</p>

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<p>You’re both right. And that’s the problem. You are right because religion is the most personal of things, and you are entitled to have your own beliefs in that regard and not to be a hypocrite by participating in religious events which celebrate things you don’t believe in.</p>

<p>But your parents are also right because church events are not just religious in nature, but also social. It’s kind of like when they tell you you have to go to Great Aunt Tillie’s 80th birthday party, even though you’re not close to Auntie, and in fact that hair growing out of the mol on her cheek kind of grosses you out and she called you by your cousin’s name the last time she saw you, and she’s gotten kind of weird in the last few years, and – well, you get the idea. You may not believe in the idea of celebrating Great Aunt Tillie’s staving off the grim reaper for another yea, but you go anyway, because it’s a family thing. </p>

<p>So my recommendation would be for you to give in and accompany your parents on Easter and Christmas, for your parents. (Of course, I’m a parent. :wink: )</p>

3

<p>There is a lot I could say on this subject, but in the end if you go home for Easter, I think that you should to to Church with your family. To be honest, I don’t really see the need for you to insist on your atheism to your parents. I’m sure that it hurts them to hear it, and it’s something that you could pretty easily avoid by going to Church occassionally and if your parents ask during the summer just saying that you don’t go to Church much anymore (there are plently of religious people who don’t go to Church regularly, for a variety of reasons). </p>

<p>Yes, I get that you don’t believe in God, and you don’t see the point in going to Church. But what about pleasing your parents? What about having more peaceful family interactions? I think that’s worth two hours on Easter Sunday. If you don’t, then that’s a different matter. You don’t need to stand on principle for every little thing; sometimes, it’s fine to sacrifice a little bit of principle for the sake of your parents and family. </p>

<p>There are tons of children, young and old, who go to Church and/or avoid discussion of religion for the sake of their parents. I would say that it’s pretty normal. You can do what you want at College, but when you’re in their house, it’s only polite to go along with reasonable family custom and tradition.</p>

<p>(In my case, my parents are Catholic, and my father tells me to go to the Catholic center on campus every time I see him. He knows I don’t go, but I don’t shove it in his face. I just let the comment pass me by. It’s easier to avoid the confrontation. In my family, the problem is complicated by my sexual orientation, which is of course another sore, and sometimes related, subject. Family, once children are grown, isn’t perfect or perfectly honest. You do what you can so that everyone gets as much out of it as possible. I hate to be the cynic here, but sometimes the best and most polite thing to do is not be completely honest.)</p>

4

<p>Good advice above. I agree.</p>

<p>Also keep in mind that a lot of us who were “undecided,” “atheist,” or “believe in some vague notion of a higher power” (the normal American variant of atheism) in high school and college changed our minds in adulthood and returned to faith. I was never as adamant as you about insisting on non-belief, but I also did not attend church from about the age of 14 until I was 21, when I figured out what I believed. I now go to church pretty much every week and it has become the center of both my social and spiritual life.</p>

<p>The only advice in there is to not get to committed to a dogma when you are young, because as you mature I guarantee you will see things differently. You might not ever see things as your parents do, but if you turn out to be a mature adult and not a perpetual adolescent, you might start seeing good points in what your parents think and say. It’s hard to remember as an adolescent, but a lot of the personality of some teens and young adults is an automatic rejection of whatever your parents believe and say, and that is perfectly natural and more than a little irrational. Your parents probably don’t know as much as they think they do, but they are also probably a lot wiser than you think they are. I’ve heard that if we didn’t make each other crazy, kids would never move out.</p>

5

<p>^^^All of the above offer excellent advice, BlahDeBlah. You sound like a very caring person to even put so much thought into your decision.</p>

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<p>This is why they invented those rules about having to do 60 hours of practice driving with a parent in the car before you can take your road test. It’s hard to think of a better way to generate parent-child hostility.</p>

7

<p>I agree you should make an effort to meet your parents half-way; you don’t have to share their beliefs in order to do so, but you should respect theirs and their wishes so long as you are in their house. it does not seem to be such a major inconvenience, and there are many other issues on which it is more worthwhile to stand on principles.</p>

8

<p>I’m not a Christian, but I enjoy church for occasional visits. I love the music. If Christmas and Easter will make your parents happy why not give it to them as a nice present.</p>

9

<p>My mother did pull out the “I went through a phase like that when I was a teenager and then I got over it when I moved out” story, but I got the impression that she really didn’t decide she didn’t believe in God, and now she thinks that I’m the same…that I’m just being rebellious and difficult and lazy and I don’t actually believe the things that I say to her. I’m sorry, but I find that rather hurtful and insulting, and I don’t know what to do in the face of people telling me that they think everything I say I believe in is a lie. I don’t know why anyone would think I would lie about it to begin with. </p>

<p>Maybe what I don’t quite get is this: we have a pretty small family, mostly just me, my parents, and my grandmother, and my mother is the only one that really pushes the issue. She thinks I’m selfish because I won’t go to church primarily to please her…the other 2 family members are primarily afterthoughts and I don’t even know whether they care or not because they never say. But she doesn’t think that forcing someone to do something they don’t want to do just because it pleases her is selfish, and I kind of do. Especially since she’s been doing it for years already. I don’t feel like she ever stops and considers what it feels like from my point of view, it’s always about her, it would please her if I go, it makes her unhappy that I don’t, it makes her unhappy that I believe something different. She doesn’t seem to care about how saying that makes me feel, or about how their actions over the years made me feel. </p>

<p>I tried going back to my apartment for Easter one year, because I was tired of the whole situation, and that resulted in my parents trying to simultaneously kick me out of the house permanently and remove the license plates from my car so I couldn’t actually go anywhere. Not being here for Easter is absolutely not an option until I can get my parents to surrender all my money and possessions that they keep hold of, and I move far, far away.</p>

10

<p>Hang with the family on the important dates. They’re few and the connection is important regardless of your personal relationship with G*d.</p>

11

<p>Oh, please. So, your mother wants you to go to Church. Maybe it’s selfish because she doesn’t want all her little Church friends to suspect that you don’t have the perfect Christian family. Or maybe she’s really thinking of you and trying to save your soul. Either way, why don’t you just go? Is it really that painful for you to sit in Church on a Sunday morning? Why do you need to shove your religious beliefs (or lack thereof) in her face, anyway? You say that you don’t know what to do “in the face of people telling me that they think everything I say I believe in is a lie.” Well, you wouldn’t face that problem at all if you didn’t project your beliefs unnecessarily. Religious beliefs are something that few adults actively discuss, and when they do it’s almost overly respectful most of the time. I don’t entirely understand how the fact that your mother expresses that what you say hurts her has really been all that damaging to you “over the years,” but it obviously hurts her, too. Maybe I’m being too harsh here, but I think that you’re brining a lot of these problems on yourself by being overly confrontational. Is two hours on a Sunday morning really worth this? I gave you the benefit of the doubt when I read your first post, but now I think that you are being selfish and immature.</p>

<p>EDIT: I just wanted to add that if going to Church on Easter Sunday is the biggest problem in your family relationship right now, then you are very lucky. That is not a big problem unless you make it one.</p>

12

<p>I’m not a Christian, and never have been. But when I’m visiting a family that goes to church, I go with them. I don’t pray, I don’t believe, but I go because it is polite. It is a social & familial thing, and church can be as much about community as it is about religion.</p>

<p>Look at it as joining your mother’s social group - observe it from a sociological issue. Don’t pray if you don’t want to; your mother just wants you there. You can also look at it as simply being polite to those whom you are visiting.</p>

13

<p>Kluge says more or less what I would have said.</p>

<p>We go to church and there was a time when it would have been D’s option whether to go or not and certainly there were always dispensations in for reasonable cause…for all of us, e.g., she had two ballet performances the day before and call time for the Sunday matinee was noon.</p>

<p>D has pretty much continued her church going whether at campus, in D.C., or abroad. She lucked out abroad in that her housemate was of the same persuasion and they went to Mass as a pair.</p>

<p>I would never insist that anyone come to church with us though it would also be made clear that they were welcome, believers or not. That said, given the dynamic of parent/child, I would consider the social dimension and politeness. Just as I would expect separate bedrooms when visiting with a guest who was a MOTAS, even if they were otherwise playing snugglebunnies on YouTube.</p>

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<p>TheDad, MOTAS?</p>

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<p>Sorry, net slang from another forum, another era, don’t know if it’s still used or if the particular Usenet fora in question have even survived. I really am a dinosaur. MOTAS = Member of the Appropriate Sex, i.e., whichever sex the person in question has a sexual dynamic with. </p>

<p>As opposed to MOTOS, “opposite sex.”</p>

16

<p>Ah, got it. I knew it was something along those lines, but I couldn’t quite work out the acronym (I’ve always been terrible with them).</p>

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<p>Why do you think that it is ok for my parents to shove their beliefs down my throat? No really, I am curious. It is obviously not ok for me to inform them that I don’t believe the same thing as they do, and it is pointless because they think I am lying anyway. You do not consider my parents telling their child she’s going to hell because she’s a horrible person, bodily dragging her out of the house, refusing to listen to what she has to say or believing it when they do listen, to be harmful in any way?</p>

<p>I guess my main problem is that my mother has suddenly come up with this “do it because it’s polite and it pleases your family” thing, and she acts like it’s always been that way, and she completely ignores the fact that they used to yell at me and force me to go every single week completely against my will, and never gave me any reason for it. Yes it does **** me off to go to church, because it’s years and years of resentment and thinking maybe if I’m good for a month, they’ll listen, maybe if I write it down, they’ll listen, maybe if I’m good for a year, they’ll listen, maybe when I turn 18, they’ll listen and it just never, never happens. </p>

<p>I would consider going to church once a year when my parents want me there at least twice (but really every single week) and I want to be there never again, to be a compromise…but I guess not. I am sorry that standing up for my beliefs and not being a mental clone of my parents makes me an evil person, a spoiled brat, a bad child, a horrible disappointment.</p>

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<p>Corranged, if your parents don’t appreciate you enough, can I adopt you?</p>

19

<p>Ooook…</p>

<ol>
<li><p>You asked in your first post whether you were being selfish. Don’t ask if you’re looking for a specific answer.</p></li>
<li><p>

I didn’t say it was OK. It also doesn’t sound as if that’s really what they’re doing. You said that your father didn’t care all that much one way or the other, and it sounds as if your mother just wants you to go to Church on these days no matter what you believe (like what she said about whatever-his-name-is who doesn’t believe in God and goes to Church). It sounds more as if she’s trying to force you to go to Church on Easter than it sounds as if she’s trying to force you to believe.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>3.

It is not necessary for you to tell them that you think that what they believe is wrong and that you have rejected the faith they have worked hard to raise you in. It’s simply rude. It is usually possible to bypass these questions or at least answer them in the least harmful way possible. Given these posts and the conversations/incidents you’ve described, I’m guessing that you helped create the current situation.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>

That’s called being a child. Parents force their kids to do things like go to Church all the time “completely against [their] will,” and they don’t need to provide good reasons (though they should try). That’s the way being a kid works. Your parents tell you to do things that you may not want to do, and you do them because you’re the kid and they’re the parents. Some of this fades when the child grows up, but a little of that control (or perceived control) will always remain. </p></li>
<li><p>

Stop talking about this like you were being tortured. When you were a kid your parents made you go to Church when you didn’t want to–that’s like, 60% of America’s children. Now that you’re in college, your parents have relaxed enough to only request that you go on Christmas and Easter–that’s simple courtesy. This is not a big deal.</p></li>
<li><p>Your parents want 52 times a year (plus Christmas, Good Friday, and Holy Thursday, Ash Wednesday, and whatever else, but let’s say 52). You want 0. I think 2 is a damn good compromise for you.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>7.

If you stand up like this for every belief you ever have, you will never get anywhere. All relationships (family relationships, romatic relationships, workplace relationships, client relationships, etc.) require you to compromise on your beliefs sometimes. The trick is knowing which beliefs are important enough risk damaging and losing those relationships over.</p>

<ol>
<li>Perhaps your parents should be more understanding here, but you have a simple decision. The choice, in my opinion, is easy. Go to Church for four hours a year (including the drive) or continue to add fuel to this fire.</li>
</ol>

<p>JHS, my parents do appreciate me very, very much. I have the ability to recognize which things in my life are important enough to risk damaging the relationship and which things I should just let go, so our relationship is peaceful, productive, and focused on the positive. The things that aren’t going to or don’t need to change I let be, and the rest I deal with as best I can whenever it comes along. You can adopt me on CC, though! :)</p>

20

<p>BDB:</p>

<p>I feel for you. If your parents pushed their beliefs on you for years, they were wrong. I can understand your resentment now at being forced to step inside a church.</p>

<p>As a nonbeliever, I also understand how difficult it can be to step inside a church, even just to please parents. If you’ve read up on religions and are repulsed by the oppressions committed in their name, ya just don’t wanna be there!</p>

<p>That said, I always went to church when I visited my parents. I found it a useful social occasion, and pretended to myself I was doing research when I had to listen to some of the crazy stuff. </p>

<p>Can you make a deal, maybe in writing, with your parents? If they don’t say one word to you, even one leading comment, about the value of religion–yours or theirs–you’ll go along with them twice a year. Then if they blow it, the deal’s off. </p>

<p>I think I enjoyed going with my parents because they were respectful enough to <em>never</em> ask me if I attended church, and to never discuss religion. </p>

<p>It’s useful to remember that your parents’ browbeating may be more about <em>them</em> than you. For example, I drive my kids nuts about money–worrying they’ll spend too much. They get angry about it. But that comes out of my background, my not having enough. Maybe it can help you shrug it off if you realize their zealousness is more about their insecurities than really about you. Good luck!</p>