<p>I remember in our area (back in the early 70s?) when Catholic churches started the practice of a 5:00 Saturday mass–very convenient, apparently. The official rationale was that the Jewish Sabbath started on the evening before the day, so that was good enough for them! (Never mind that at 5:00 in the summer the sun is nowhere close to setting.) 
It works in the winter, tho.</p>
<p>Note to Dorothy<em>Parker</em>wannabe:</p>
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<p>For all those who think BlahdeBlah should go to church with her parents out of courtesy, I have a question for you:</p>
<p>What if BlahdeBlah’s parents were Pagan and Blahdeblah had become a Christian? Would you still think that BlahdeBlah ‘should’ go with her parents to a Pagan gathering, out of politeness?</p>
<p>Or, what if it were reversed: the parents Christian and Blahdeblah Pagan…wouldn’t it be reasonable for Blahdeblah to ask her parents to go with her to a Pagan gathering occasionally? (they could have an agreement to share each other’s religions with the other.)</p>
<p>^ In all honesty, lealdragon, that’s entirely irrelevent to the question. That’s taking the argument to an extreme (you’re practically setting up a mild straw-man argument). :)</p>
<p>In response to the original post–</p>
<p>Going to church and not believing in God doesn’t make any sense at all. I don’t believe that your parents make you attend church if you’re not getting anything out of it. Going with the mindset of “I don’t want to be here” creates a roadblock anyways, and you won’t get anything out of the service. Your mother is looking at church attendance as something you “do”, as a deed, as a tradition–not because you are actively seeking to gain something. That, to me, is counter-productive. </p>
<p>That being said, I am Christian and my parents recently gave me the choice of attending church instead of making me go with them. I go on occassion, but I feel like religion is a choice you need to make for yourself–no one else can make it for you. Maybe, more than anything, you need a break from the whole “social-ness” of the church. Personally, I think that calling church a social gathering is looking at it in the wrong perspective. It’s time to learn about God and fellowship with others. You shouldn’t go to “make an appearance”–that’s just surface-stuff, it’s not what’s really important. </p>
<p>Besides–I hate waking up early to go to church. :P</p>
<p>I wouldn’t feel any different attending a pagan gathering with my parents as opposed to a Christian one. The nature of the gathering is not what is important - it is that they want me there and I just don’t have a problem with it. I can check my brain at the door.</p>
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<p>I don’t think so. I’m just wondering how many Christians would advise someone to go to a Pagan gathering just to show respect to her parents’ views.</p>
<p>When my atheist mother found out I was going to church (Unitarian) many Sundays (not Christmas and Easter), her response was “Oh, darling, we didn’t raise you like that” followed by a deep and disappointed sigh.</p>
<p>If there is a healthy, respectful relationship between the adult child and the parents, attending Pagan, Christian, Muslim, Zoroastrian or whatever else services wouldn’t be a problem for anyone.</p>
<p>Sometimes you reach a point in parent- adult child relationships where a child needs to decide some things, as do the parents.</p>
<p>If the parent is telling the offspring they are going to hell because they no longer have the same beliefs, that child has no obligation to go to church with the parents. IF the parents are saddened, but say little, and just want the child’s company, the child might want to go. There is no cut and dry exact answer to this.</p>
<p>My initial response was, well, twice a year won’t hurt, but if those events are wrought with nasty words, hostility, anger, there is no real point.</p>
<p>The relationship between the OP and her parents, mom in particular, is not a good one, and is in fact a bit toxic the more I read. </p>
<p>There is no reason for any adult to shove religious beliefs or non beliefs at each other, but there is also no reason to hide the truth. But that does not mean disparaging each others choices- mom should know better, and the OPs reactions, being a daughter and a mother of two girls, I understand</p>
<p>I think it is time for the D to take a stand. </p>
<p>"Mom, I love you and want to spend time with you, but I cannot if each visit revolves around your disappointment with me and my religious beliefs. I would even be willing to attend a servie at Christmas as a family, but not if you are going to insult my very being. I am who I am and you need to accept that. I am not in jail, I am trying to have a grown up relationship with you, I taking very good care of myself, and I wish that was enough for you to love me. I love you, and I understand how important your church is in your life, it is just not in my life anymore.</p>
<p>But, if everytime we get together, you tell me I am going to hell, and thus are telling me I am bad, evil, etc., do you think that I want to hear that?</p>
<p>I think for us to have a loving relationship, we need to make a pact, no talk of religion from either of us. And if you want to spend time with me, there are lots of ways we can do that- museums, a picnic, etc. And I will probably be able to join you at a service on a holiday, if we can keep things loving and civil."</p>
<p>Here is something else I would do, on Easter sunday, find some service project to do- volunteer some where, it feels good- it doesn’t have to be a religious place- it can be a museum, a soup kitchen, whatever</p>
<p>And if mom say, why aren’t you coming to church, you can honestly say, you are helping others.</p>
<p>It will make you feel really good, it you out of that hostile environment and you will be doing something on your own terms.</p>
<p>When do you graduate, and when you do, will you still live at home? Having someone telling me I was going to hell all the time would be enough to make me bonkers.</p>
<p>Respecting a parents views, well its a two way street, and while mom may not be thrilled with your not being part of the church, she doens’t have to be cruel and demeaning, something i wouldn’t guess is very Christian in your mind, and thus the rub.</p>
<p>If I were you, I would find something worthwhile to do on Sundays, even if its going to the lbirary to study, exercise, volunteering, etc. Having a real place to go and get out of there will do a lot for your mental health, and it can help with school, you will meet some new people, etc.</p>
<p>Then you can join them for dinner, if you choose and discuss your wonderful fullfilling day</p>
<p>dmd77–lol</p>
<p>kluge–nice disposal of purple prose</p>
<p>citygirlsmom–I agree. If the relationship is toxic and demeaning to the daughter, she needs to do something for her own mental health. She can’t keep going back like a whipped puppy, hoping this time the result will be different. </p>
<p>Problem is, it’s hard to find alternate things to do on Sunday mornings! Kids’ soccer practice and a downtown soup kitchen are the only things that come to mind, and until the OP has children of her own, she can’t use the first excuse. The second one sounds good, however.</p>
<p>She MIGHT even try attending an alternative, less objectionable church and then reporting on her experience. I believe Unitarians are welcoming to unbelievers. Wonder what her mom would say to that? Or is the home church the only acceptable one.</p>
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<p>Kluge, like you, I question not only the content of your every point but, even more, the dull manner in which you repeatedly make it …though it must be said that the festering self-doubt–here revealed–is a refreshing charm: very sporting of you, sir.</p>
<p>By the by, per your post, I do not suspect that you, sir, are any kind of angry-middle-aged-white-male wannabe; no, in this endeavor you are quite ripe and ready; so, I urge you to express yourself confidently and–in an old turn of phrase-- celebrate yourself to assume what we all assume, for the atom of every aging/angry white male, once found, will be found in you. </p>
<p>Why the self-doubt?</p>
<p>And as to the form and content of the posts loos’d on this forum:
As a great man once surmised, such musings as are contained here are no more than “words loos’d to the eddies of the wind.” …now, go ahead and exhale and in so doing toss out a word or two …sir.</p>
<p>.</p>
<p>Um, read all ? as " " </p>
<p>Morass indeed. Can we stay on topic and be helpful to the OP?</p>
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…as always madam, sharp as a tack and even then coupled to a discriminating flair for the obvious.</p>
<p>
…all that could be said, has been said–and well said, I should add. I stayed out of this one till the last, as I believed the advice given was sufficient and to the point–even by those that normally never miss a mischievous opportunity to affect a cavalier pose when they stoop to speak of religious belief …with, of course, a few noted exceptions–thus, I posted in that regard.</p>
<p>Besides, the op was not primarily interested in wise recommendations or slick advice but was, I suspect, in need of venting/ranting on an anonymous forum, having no doubt exhausted the patience of the actual people in her own life. </p>
<p>This is one of those ‘deal with it’ moments, where flaws abound and there are no solutions that will ‘take.’</p>
<p>.</p>
<p>Sharp as a tack would not refer to gleefully pouncing on painfully obvious punctuation problems, of course.</p>
<p>And cavalier pose would not refer to anyone posting here, of course.</p>
<p>And exhausting the patience…oh, never mind.</p>
<p>
…can’t speak for ‘anyone’, but for me: certainly not with three outta four–maybe even all four, why not, depending on how you’d define the ever ubiquitous ‘pagan.’</p>
<p>Blahdeblah,</p>
<p>Did not read the whole thread-- but I think this issue with your mom has more to do with loss of ‘control’ than religion per se. </p>
<p>My guess is she wants to have a little Mom respect and feel a little Mom power. IMO. You attending services with her will make her feel that you respect her enough to do that FOR HER.</p>
<p>It is hard for parents to accept that we cannot MAKE our kids come out like we want them to. We have no control, ultimately. When people dig in on an issue like this I think that’s the heart of it. Their positions can become irrational because the real issue is something else. Maybe your position too is about not BEING controlled.</p>
<p>Re your life, your beliefs: you have all the control and she has none. That’s reality.</p>
<p>So, maybe humor her for the sake of family harmony? Or, if you can’t yet do that, at least give her lots of love and hugs and tell her how important she is to you… That could solve it too.</p>
<p>BTW I am an athiest raised by athiests, but I attend Jewish services with my H and kids on high holy days-- and I spend the time pondering how to be a better person. Not a waste of time, IMO.</p>
<p>By the way Dorothy are you Fountain Siren? If not, I think you ape her style.</p>
<p>SBMom: FountainSiren is dead. Long live Dorothy_ParkerX. Say no more.</p>
<p>“Fellowship” is social- you can worship alone at home (such as Hindus do), churches are social. People pick their church on more than the theology.</p>