Abraham Lincoln's Standardized Test Scores

DerrickA · May 29, 2007, 7:03pm

^would not be indicative of his skill and ability

So let’s stop rushing to topics where the highlight is a low or exceptionally high score and “Lisa the failure got into Harvard with an abysmal 1900! Discuss!” is the ploy, take a step back, and observe something:

Tangibles like standardized test scores do not have to be prerequisites to qualification at a college. Consider Jian Li, the angsty and pretentious teenager featured in a Youtube video where he laments over the fact that “because of AA and legacies, he did not get into top colleges, just the local community college-Yale”. Some of those who observed this story make great haste to pull out an anecdote where a “[insert URM] kid who got a meager ____ on her SATS got accepted into Harvard”.

This grieves me.

It grieves me because no matter how many times the indisputable fact that qualification is not a student’s GPA plus their SAT divided by their ExtraCurricular count, some jaded people continue to cite anecdotes devoid of anything but race and SAT score as valid evidence of an “unfair” system.

It grieves me because no matter how many times a poster, or better yet an admissions officer (from the mouth of the college god itself) explicitly or implicitly states that character and demonstrated POTENTIAL and UNIQUENESS of character separate the wheat from the chaff, self proclaimed experts go on to cite that a 1900 getting into college over a 2400 into a college is unfair- regardless of the intangibles.

But most of all, it grieves and disturbs me when people blame their lack of success in college admissions on nameless, faceless, “unqualified” applicants who are stealing the place that was given to the bereaved applicant by the Hand of God. Who are they to judge the qualifications of an applicant when they themselves still stand on the shoulders of Mom and Dad?

A man like Abraham Lincoln in this day in age would probably not perform too well on standardized tests; he suffered from frequent bouts of depression and had bipolar disorder. But I bet you he had a good head on his shoulders. And I would go so far as to say that his character and “demonstrated potential” would make Harvard good enough for him.

MBJ · May 29, 2007, 7:12pm

Lincoln…indisputably a genius…likely had less than a formal 6th grade education. His G-s Address…10 sentences…amazing stuff…can’t be taught…
Imagine if he had Jefferson’s formal education…

collegealum314 · May 29, 2007, 8:51pm

Derrick, have you seen the recent PBS special on founding father Alexander Hamilton? I highly recommend it. He is a great example of why it is important to elevate those with critical thinking skills whenever possible. Incidentally, he was the only founding father who was truly an abolitionist. The difference between Hamilton and the shameless opportunist Aaron Burr is striking and illustrative of what people are arguing about here. Burr had leadership qualities just like Hamilton, but Burr lacked the critical thinking skills of Hamilton.

charlie109 · May 29, 2007, 8:55pm

Yet Burr won the duel.

karupt · May 29, 2007, 9:18pm

Jan wasn’t suing SOLELY on the fact that he had a 2400 on his SATs and had a stellar college app… he sued based ON STUDIES conducted that PROVED Asian Americans were discrimianted against in the college admissions processs… that 80% of URM at those top colleges wouldn’t even be there (the spot would be given to an Asian American) if race was not a factor. Even a college admissions officer stated that “Asians are textureless math grinds.”

So stop hating on Jian before you even know the facts…

DerrickA · May 29, 2007, 10:16pm

<ol>
<li>He sued based on a Princeton study that defines it’s own biased variables for “qualification”.</li>
<li>As I perceive it, he is not to be viewed as some deified freedom fighter. No, he is far too naive for that. Rather he is suing for his own edification and on the basis of a spurious claim that if not for those URM’s “taking his spots”, he would have obtained admission.</li>
</ol>

My problem with that claim is that it operates on the assumptions that

He is significantly more qualified in a HOLISTIC sense than those 80% of URM’s. How can that be determined merely from a standardized test score.
ALL admissions officers, including the ones that evaluated him, classified him as a “textureless math grind”
His case seeks to accomplish no true purpose- even if some sort of legislation were passed to make admissions race blind, he would still be a textureless math grind, just not asian.

It seems to me that poor, deprived Jian Li has a bone to pick but no meat to his argument. And it angers me that he would be so pretentious as to think that he is in some way entitled to admission at top colleges. I know the facts, I did my homework, do not lecture me.

collegealum314
I didn’t get to see that special but I’ll keep an eye out for it. I actually revere Hamilton as, in my opinion, one of the most brilliant men in American history. But I just chose Lincoln because is a lot more recognizable for this topic since he’s an icon =|

DerrickA · May 29, 2007, 10:19pm

Only because Hamilton had too much honor to fight with a lesser mortal.

BIGTWIX · May 29, 2007, 11:36pm

duel is a settlement for wusses. I mean, i would duel if i was stupid. If you can’t beat em with brains, shoot them, thats what i always say.

koolcrud · May 29, 2007, 11:42pm

College is school. Jian’s stats are as good as they can possibly be, something that probably 1/100,000 high school kids can claim at best. I’d be pretty ****ed if I were him too. Why is it fair that a bunch of admissions officers that probably lack the leadership and critical thinking qualities to succeed in the business market are able to judge leadership and potential from a one page essay and a 10 line list of ECs?

Whaltimore · May 30, 2007, 12:24am

Lincoln tried to duel with someone. Luckily for him, it got cancelled before he could get pwned. He was ashamed by this for the rest of his life, and wouldn’t even allow it to be mentioned in the white house.

Lurker_1 · May 30, 2007, 12:46am

“2. As I perceive it, he is not to be viewed as some deified freedom fighter. No, he is far too naive for that. Rather he is suing for his own edification and on the basis of a spurious claim that if not for those URM’s “taking his spots”, he would have obtained admission.”

He already got into Yale University, which I realize is so far below Princeton in terms or prestige and academics (it might as well be community college) . Even he would not enroll in Princeton if he won the lawsuit because of the social stigma that would be associated with him for suing his own school.

“He is significantly more qualified in a HOLISTIC sense than those 80% of URM’s. How can that be determined merely from a standardized test score.”

Um he is quite qualified, he was top 1% of his class with a 2400 SAT score. Last I checked you couldn’t only take math courses in high school so im sure he did reasonably well in his humanities courses, you know a few D’s and F’s … oh wait he’s top 1% at Livingston high school, one of the best high schools in new jersey (which is also famed for its great public education system). He was in science olympiad and probably had some sort of leadership, otherwise he wouldn’t have gotten into Yale. His passion was in mathematics, something to be deeply ashamed of - gosh what a textureless asian math grind. We don’t need anymore of them!

"ALL admissions officers, including the ones that evaluated him, classified him as a “textureless math grind”

Guess Yale likes textureless math grinds. I dunno I think its better than being a textureless hypocrite that takes advantage of affirmative action. Hey guys, I’m an african american, i go to [insert prestigous private school], i roll in the money, but I’m still very underprivledged. I need to go to college more than the homeless white kids down the street because i endured hardships

“His case seeks to accomplish no true purpose- even if some sort of legislation were passed to make admissions race blind, he would still be a textureless math grind, just not asian.”

Aaaand do you think a textureless african american math grind would get into princeton with those stats? I think so.

“It seems to me that poor, deprived Jian Li has a bone to pick but no meat to his argument. And it angers me that he would be so pretentious as to think that he is in some way entitled to admission at top colleges. I know the facts, I did my homework, do not lecture me.”

Its even more amusing that poor Derrick has a bone to pick with Jian Li, who last I checked, atleast, should be entitled to an equal chance in the college admissions process.

collegealum314 · May 30, 2007, 1:15am

Derek is right about one point–Li cannot definitively prove that admissions is flawed. Even if it was flawed, no one would be able to prove it. As Karabel has written, this is partly by design.

The situation bears a lot in common to the figure skating scandal at the olympics a few years ago. Like college admissions, the judging in figure skating is holistic. You had the Russians falling on the ice three times or something and the Canadians skated a strong program cleanly. Yet the Russians won. The only reason it got changed was because there was evidence that two judges were paid off (French and Russian judge). (Apparently, in the case of college admissions, evidence of people getting paid off isn’t enough.) Falling on the ice 3 times is sort of like getting docked 500 points on the SAT. There is no cut-off for how many times you can end up on your butt and still get the gold medal, yet it is supposed to hurt you somewhat and falling 3 times should effectively end your chances if one of your rivals skates cleanly. You can imagine that the Russian’s skating program was harder, and there are allowances for this in judging, but in actuality the difficulty of the two programs were about the same. No matter what, the Russian judge could always claim that the Canadians lagged behind in the artistic area. It is awfully convenient.

collegealum314 · May 30, 2007, 1:52am

Anyway, I do believe admissions is flawed, but I feel that it is best to leave AA out of it and just restrict yourself to the dumb decisions being made about who gets in among the non-URMs. By the way, the top admissions dean that uttered the “textureless math grind” comment was the recently fired Dean of Admissions at MIT, which makes it all the more ridiculous considering that mathematical prowess is highly indicative of future competence in technical majors. She was fired after it was discovered she falsified all her academic degrees. I guess school was too much of a grind for her.

Anyway, I do believe admissions is flawed, but I feel that it is best to leave AA out of it and just restrict yourself to the dumb decisions being made about who gets in among the non-URMs. By the way, the top admissions dean that uttered the “textureless math grind” comment was the recently fired Dean of Admissions at MIT, which makes it all the more ridiculous considering that mathematical prowess is highly indicative of future competence in technical majors. She was fired after it was discovered she falsified all her academic degrees. I guess school was too much of a grind for her.

DerrickA · May 30, 2007, 2:48pm

“Its even more amusing that poor Derrick has a bone to pick with Jian Li, who last I checked, atleast, should be entitled to an equal chance in the college admissions process.”

<ol>
<li>Firstly, you are asserting that he was not entitled to his “fair chance”. Was his application reviewed? I suspect so. Was he interviewed at any point? I suspect so. Were his chances not so great because he was perceived as not significantly different or beneficial to the diversity of the college? I suspect so. </li>
</ol>

“He already got into Yale University, which I realize is so far below Princeton in terms or prestige and academics (it might as well be community college) . Even he would not enroll in Princeton if he won the lawsuit because of the social stigma that would be associated with him for suing his own school.”

<ol>
<li>It seems to me, based on what I gleaned from the report, that he was angered because he wasn’t accepted into most or all of the schools, regardless of what he was accepted into. Great achievement engenders desire for even greater achievement, not content. Plus I don’t really see the point of this “argument”.</li>
</ol>

“Um he is quite qualified, he was top 1% of his class with a 2400 SAT score.”

The idea that you could state that he is qualified, or better to say, a good fit, based on his rank and SATs is laughable. It’s like not knowing what Hitler did and saying he must be a decent human being because he was smart. So what if he was in science olympiad? We know nothing of his achievements there. But the worst part of what you said is that implied that he “probably” had leadership positions because he got into Yale. So what about the other colleges, and how the hell do you figure that?

“I dunno I think its better than being a textureless hypocrite that takes advantage of affirmative action. Hey guys, I’m an african american, i go to [insert prestigous private school], i roll in the money, but I’m still very underprivledged.”

** How dare you **
How dare you imply that African Americans take advantage of affirmative action willfully and intentionally. Does checking off “African American” in the ethnicity box make one an opportunist. Does not hiding the color of ones skin during an interview make one a hypocrite? I am not only disgusted, by offended and enraged by this comment.

“His passion was in mathematics, something to be deeply ashamed of - gosh what a textureless asian math grind. We don’t need anymore of them!”

Tell me, what made Jian Li unique from many other asian students who have a focus on science and math, are involved in a science activity like science Olympiad, have stellar board scores and class rank? Based on what we know, nothing. Call it fair or foul, but a student who was black and had the same credentials probably would have been admitted. Why? Because he or she would be unique among the pool of other African Americans, a pool in which 2400’s and stellar academics are not as common.

Do not venture to say that Jian Li did not have an equal chance in the college admissions process. He was not shifted to the failure pile without consideration because he checked of “Asian” under ethnicity. Do not extrapolate the statements of one admission officer, WHO DID NOT HAVE ANY ROLE IN JIAN LI’s ADMISSION OR LACK THEREOF, to all admission officers. Do not be so pretentious and assume that african americans play up their race to get into college, as if there was some way to conceal. Don’t you dare offend others with such poison.

Lurker_1 · May 30, 2007, 3:16pm

Of course, what was I thinking. None of the African Americans in the world take advantage of affirmative action. Being black does not make you disadvantaged, being poor does. That is my assertion.

PS: I demand affirmative action in the NBA

DerrickA · May 30, 2007, 3:42pm

And of course, there’s no such thing as an intangible, like racism, cultural attitudes toward education due to years of slavery and iniquity, and social stigmas. How could a black person like DerrickA who is not poor have experienced such things?

“Hey guys, I’m an african american, i go to [insert prestigous private school], i roll in the money, but I’m still very underprivledged. I need to go to college more than the homeless white kids down the street because i endured hardships”

Of course there are african americans who do this, but to me the very inclusion of such a hateful and implicitly rude statement makes it seem as if this is largely the case. It is most likely rare, but the fact that you highlight it makes it sound as if it is commonplace. You have no shame, you insult others, unintentionally or otherwise, and still persevere bullishly in overgeneralized arguments.

And AA is a result of initiative on the colleges part in this day and age, not the government’s. So if the NBA finds it desirable to initiate AA in the NBA, fine by me. They are beholden to nothing and nobody, just like private colleges. Keep your high minded, narrow ideals at home.

Lurker_1 · May 30, 2007, 4:39pm

Yes, so lets be racist to asians now.

edit: whatever this is a pointless argument, i simply feel affirmative action should be based on economic hardship rather than the color of your skin. AA is an easy fix to a bigger problem, and by practicing it, its only making things worse by lowering standards.

Education reform is whats required.

koolcrud · May 30, 2007, 5:14pm

Right, because Asians and Jews experience no discrimination whatsoever. Only blacks and hispanics do. Get off your high horse Derrick.

DerrickA · May 30, 2007, 5:28pm

“And of course, there’s no such thing as an intangible, like racism, ** cultural attitudes toward education due to years of slavery and iniquity ** , and social stigmas.”

Obviously discrimination and past history affects all races, but it has hard more adverse effects in terms of education on some more than others. I think I will remain on my horse.

lackadaisy · May 30, 2007, 5:40pm

I’m afraid this “historical suppression” thing doesn’t wash: Asians had no part in the suppressing. And imperialism was no picnic, either.

I once heard this saying that “Everyone’s a little bit racist.” To a large degree, it’s true. Remember the Implicit Association Test (<a href=“Project Implicit)?%5B/url%5D”>Project Implicit)?</a>

Racism is in its worst form when it goes unrecognized. Just as women today hit the glass ceiling in a subtle and insidious way, Asian-Americans are being told that they’re “automatons,” “textureless,” and “replaceable”.

American teenagers hear every day how the world is becoming more globalized, how that means their attention should be turned to their strength - individuality, human interaction.

The painfully obvious implication is that Asians are NOT individuals. They are not human. Those call centers in India aren’t bad because Indians don’t know English - they’re bad because they’re Indian. Not like us. (In what way? Bigger brains, smaller hearts?)

Tell me that isn’t racism. Or would you tell a little white boy to give up playing basketball because he should “play to his strengths” against African-Americans by getting good grades?

Abraham Lincoln's Standardized Test Scores

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