Abramoff- about fricken time...

Parent Cafe
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<p>There is no question that corruption has occurred whenever power flourishes. It takes a unique discipline to refuse to take advantage during a competition. Corruption doesn’t only happen with the powerful, there is the universal belief that somehow asking for a favor is not a bad thing, whether it is to get out of a ticket or to get help raising money for expensive television advertisements. Look at the people who would like a loophole around certain financial aid questions.</p>

<p>I would hope we would all celebrate the convictions of any office holder who traded votes for cash or trips or any other favor.</p>

<p>

I agree Xiggi, we need to keep a careful eye on those ethical errors during eras of auras of laisses-faire.</p>

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<p>Xiggi - I actually didn’t try to color corruption as red or blue. It’s my belief that power corrupts. Period. We’ve got unsupervised Republicans playing in the Washington sandbox, and I’m not surprised they’re stealing the cookies. I wouldn’t expect it to be much different if the party affiliation were reversed. My only partisan point is this: after listening to the right wing nutjobs froth at the mouth over every littered gum wrapper of the Clinton administration, I’m not really receptive to hearing a Republican complain about hypocrisy when the likes of CGM gloat over a former head of Campus Republicans being caught in rampant and sleazy corruption, hand in hand with a number of prominent elected representatives of the “holier than thou” party. How many millions were spent by Ken Starr trying to find something - anything - he could hang on Clinton during the 90’s? Do you honestly think that was driven simply by a desire to enforce the law, even-handedly? </p>

<p>The worst of the fraud and bizarre sleaze of Enron took place in the first year of the Bush Administration. When California yelled foul at being robbed blind by “Kenny Boy”, as GWB referred to Ken Lay, do you recall what the Administration’s response was? So what exactly is your point here?</p>

<p>And to respond to your assertion that DOJ and local prosecutors have been more active in the past six years than under previous administrations - no, I haven’t observed that. Which is not to say I’ve observed the opposite, either. It’s really hard to say - there are thousands of local jurisdictions with prosecutorial authority, and the reporting of what they do is neither consistent nor exhaustive. While the activities of the DOJ do respond in some part to the winds that blow in Washington, there’s still a lot of plain old professional work to be done by career staff members, which doesn’t change much regardless of who’s in power.</p>

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<p>Before Enron there was another major banking scandal that touched many on both sides including John McCain and lots of D’s. Before that back in the 80’s there was the huge S&L mess that cost the government Billions in bailouts. It also touched both parties equally. I’m sure if I thought hard enough I could come up with some good 70’s and 60’s scandals.</p>

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<p>“Xiggi - I actually didn’t try to color corruption as red or blue.”
Kluge, you didn’t. Other did.</p>

<p>“The worst of the fraud and bizarre sleaze of Enron took place in the first year of the Bush Administration. When California yelled foul at being robbed blind by “Kenny Boy”, as GWB referred to Ken Lay, do you recall what the Administration’s response was? So what exactly is your point here?”</p>

<p>Kluge, you may want to do more than a cursory review of the illegal activities that took place at the dire end of the Enron fight survival. By the time Bush entered the White House, most crimes had been committed and could no longer be hidden under the persian rugs at 1400 Smith Street. It is exactly the refusal from Bush and Cheney to intervene that precipitated the collapse of Enron. By the end of the summer of 2001, it was apparent that the schemes such as the LJM SPE could not be hidden and that the statements issued in 1999 and 2000 were fraudulent. Earlier audit reports, dating as far back as the early 1990 has been routinely buried by the overly lax previous administration. </p>

<p>The indictment and guilty plea of Richard Causey is in the [public domain](<a href=“http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/enron/seccausey12204cmp.html”>http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/enron/seccausey12204cmp.html&lt;/a&gt;). When reading in conjunction with other Enron documents, the timeline of the events that lead to the collapse is very clear. While the sale of inflated stock continued in 2001, it was hardly the beginning of the fraud.</p>

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<p>I can’t believe this. This morning, as a joke, I composed a message for this thread which basically said “What? Nobody’s brought up Clinton’s name yet?” I deleted it before it was posted. Then I come back and we’re back to the same old red v. blue again and can’t discuss any scandal because “Clinton had scandals too.” One of my New Year’s resolutions was to stay out of these Cafe political discussions. Aaaaargh - one backslide, but now I’ll go back on the wagon.</p>

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<p>Dig, in my eyes, the issue is NOT that Clinton had scandals too. The issue is that the same people who love to bring up recent scandals are unwilling to admit or recognize that scandals such as corruption and political cronyism happen ALL the time. This attitude is particularly despicable when the history provides clear examples that the most egregious behavior -read criminal- was hardly synonymous with the right side of our political system. </p>

<p>The reality is that everyone should be concerned to root out the criminals and abusers from our political and representative system, and look for ways to improve the current system of political financing. I have no compassion for a snake such as Tom DeLay, and I pray that Abramoff and everyone involved in his web of deceit get a lengthy sentence. However, I share the same feeling about corrupt unions leaders or school officials who have relentlessly plundered the coffers with little supervision or repercussion for decades. Let tar and feathers cover their political colors, whatever they may be!</p>

<p>As far as Clinton, I have no problems for people to seemingly enjoy litting candles in memory of good ol’ Bill and reminisce the “glorious” past with melancholy. On the other hand, I find the attempts to elevate him to sainthood or the recurring complaint whenever his name is brought up to provide a parallel with current events to be quite annoying. </p>

<p>Well, not as annoying as the never dying red versus blue states argument.</p>

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<p>“I have no compassion for a snake such as Tom DeLay”</p>

<p>do I detect a small movement towards my end?</p>

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<p>“do I detect a small movement towards my end?”</p>

<p>I would gladly RUN toward your end as long as getting rid of unethical, inefficient, and corrupt officials is one of the objectives.</p>

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<p>amen…</p>

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<p>Xiggi, do you have any problems with companies that don’t take care of their employees, or just the employees themselves?</p>

<p>No plundering at say, the oil companies that are profitting from war, or the the other companies</p>

<p>THose are true criminals and unethical jerks. To make billions on the backs of our dead and the is unpatriotic to say the least</p>

<p>But, guess you would say that is the American way.</p>

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<p>“But, guess you would say that is the American way.”</p>

<p>I think you are mistaking Xiggi for moi. ;)</p>

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<p>I find it also interesting that Clinton was pillaged, hunted and millions of dollars spent, and where where all the criminal charges? Oh, yeah, I forgot.</p>

<p>Yet, when some right wing family values liars are proven as such, its, well everybody does it.</p>

<p>The hypocracy is staggering. Not everybody does it and the percentage of right wing hypocrats in public office that have done it is higher that the left wing liberals you so denegrate.</p>

<p>And where is Bush, who promised us clean and open government? ANd accountabilty? </p>

<p>So everybody does it is okay when its family value republicans? My my…</p>

<p>And yes, Clinton had some scandals, I thought famliy values was the watch word for the new "leaders’ in congress…oh that was only until they had no one giving them oversight…they got rid of self monitoring as soon as they could</p>

<p>Its about time</p>

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<p>The brass section never sounded better because they complained about the reeds. One of the first things you hear when a kid gets caught cheating is the whine, “well he cheated too!” It just doesn’t make it in the adult world. I don’t like any elected official turning his back on the needs of the citizens in exchange for favors from the rich and powerful. I don’t care if the are Republican or not; I hope they catch every green party candidate that took golf trips and money in exchange for political favors.</p>

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<p>Yay, Mr. B. Red v Blue v Green. I love it!!</p>

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<p>“I don’t care if the are Republican or not; I hope they catch every green party candidate that took golf trips and money in exchange for political favors.”</p>

<p>Well, I think you should. If not, why not just give golf trips and money to ALL the congressional people?The point of this particular K-Street activity was to promote a specific REPUBLICAN political agenda, further that agenda, and reward people (of what ever party) who supported that agenda. It was carried out by lifelong Republicans with lifelong ties to national Republican politics and to national Republican political leaders. </p>

<p>Yes, this could have been about Democrats or Greens, much as guns (not people) kill people. But it was Republicans with their hands on the triggers. Why shouldn’t you care? (If I were a Republican, I sure would.)</p>

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<p>CGM, I am afraid that after all this time, you still do not understand the slightest thing about my positions. You almost always refer to what YOU think I am standing for as opposed for what I support. </p>

<p>“Xiggi, do you have any problems with companies that don’t take care of their employees, or just the employees themselves?”</p>

<p>Which companies do you think I support? Let me give you a hint: one of my heroes is James Sinegal. Look him up, and you may start understanding me a bit better. And while, you are it, why not check out a few books of Peter Drucker from your free Bay Area library. </p>

<p>“No plundering at say, the oil companies that are profitting from war, or the the other companies. Those are true criminals and unethical jerks. To make billions on the backs of our dead and the is unpatriotic to say the least”</p>

<p>Ok, one of persons I hate the most is Lee Raymond. Again, look him up and try to figure out why I despise him. </p>

<p>Is it that complicated to understand that I do not support corporations and big business blindly. I happen to believe that the private sector should manage some sectors that the government has shown a great inability to do well. I support a MUCH smaller government and a society based on self-regulations and responsibility. I support to pursue all white criminals and corrupt officials and punish them- and yes your Bill was one of them. Tell me in how many states is hwe allowed to practice law? Or a less serious note, in how many golf clubs is he truly welcome?</p>

<p>It is not because I like to call Bill for what he was - or is to smaller extent since he seems to try to redeem himself by finding better company- that I refuse to look at the other side of the aisle to find deserving officials. I have mentioned several times that I really Governor Bill Richardson and that I consider Congressman Chet Edwards -who defeated a Republican in GWB own district- one of the most able and productive representatives. </p>

<p>On the other hand, are YOU ever able to drop those ugly half-glasses that are so blue tinted they so obscure the real world you believe all those questionable blogs you cherish so much.</p>

<p>For once, you wrote a true statement: “The hypocracy is staggering.” A trip to a mirror is truly in order.</p>

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<p>“I don’t like any elected official turning his back on the needs of the citizens in exchange for favors from the rich and powerful.”</p>

<p>When it comes to buying and selling influence, you hardly have to be rich. Just ask union officials!</p>

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<p>Xiggi,. I know that some people condemn elected officials who develop programs for working people as yielding to a special interest group, while they consider defrauding the many, to stuff the pockets of their richest friends is just good business. I am sorry but I don’t equate working for the few to working for the many. To me Abramoff was buying votes to line his own pockets, which isn’t the same as having union leaders protecting contracted pensions or safety regulations.</p>

<p>Randy “Duke” Cunningham was reported to have been wearing a wire for part of the past year as part of his deal. What party was that congressman in? Who will that bring down?</p>

<p>Will the Abramoff scandal replace the S&L scandal that Democratic politicians were involved in? I think it will. Will it top Watergate? No. How about the teapot dome scandal?</p>

<p>Hypothetically, Who amongst us would wager a dollar for every Democrat convicted against a dollar for every Republican convicted in this scandal or visa versa? Triple for actual congressmen and Senators.</p>

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<p>“To me Abramoff was buying votes to line his own pockets, which isn’t the same as having union leaders protecting contracted pensions or safety regulations.”</p>

<p>At no time did I try to defend Abramoff. I would not have any problem supporting the role of unions, if their role was to solely protect pensions and enforce safety regulations. Alas, I am afraid that that they stray very far from those commendable activities. From every example of positive accomplishments, it would be easy to find multiple examples of nepotism, cronyism, self-interest, and plain criminal activities. Union operate as a feudal system where the peons and vassals pledge blind allegiance to their thieving masters in exchange of favors. Only in bleeding heart America do people still attempt to hide the true colors of unions. Even in hard core Europe, the numbers of unionized workers are sinking like anchors. And for good reasons! Just explain to me why the West coast stevedores went on strike? Was there really a way to further improve the pay scales and cushy lifetime jobs of glorified janitors masquerading as cargo handlers? OOps, I forgot, there was a pension plan that not quite at a presidential level. Just explain to me why unions fought for the right of teachers to double dipping pension rights by working a single day in a non-teacher job? </p>

<p>Unions such as NEA are nothing but corrupt political machines which served a purpose in the past centuries. As far as ethics and inherent values, unions are no better than Abramoff and its ilk. The quicker we get rid of both cancers, the better off we will be.</p>

<p>PS You may want to reconsider your wager after checking the list of US political scandals on Wikipedia. When all the dust settles, the Congress Banking scandal of 1992 will still dwarf the current Abramoff fallout.</p>

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<p>“To me Abramoff was buying votes to line his own pockets,”</p>

<p>I don’t believe that for a minute…though getting wealthy is certainly among Republican preoccupations. I think the K-Street agenda was pretty clear. </p>

<p>How about Clinton?</p>