Accepted...now What?

robotmom1414 · February 27, 2012, 10:30pm

I’m new to this site and a parent of a h.s. senior who has been accepted EA to Stanford and now via Likely Letter to Yale. My son’s interests are math & computer science and has always seen himself at MIT or Stanford - a high-tech university.

He recently attended the Yale YES-weekend for STEM Likely Letter recruits. He was really impressed by so much of what he saw at Yale. It’s definitely making him think twice about where to matriculate.

Here’s my question: given his areas of interest, is Stanford simply a no-brainer? Or since he wants to get his PhD in computer science after his undergrad, would he be better off choosing a school like Yale with a lot of individualized attention in the sciences, strong humanities and robust residential college life and then looking to Stanford for grad school? Also, I’m guessing that cost of attendance will be better at Yale. Some input would be greatly appreciated!

YaleGradandDad · February 28, 2012, 9:14am

I often think that the best part about Yale for me was the prolonged meals when I thought I was finished and about to leave but then got immersed in another ongoing discussion. As a hard core science major I immeasurably benefited from the academic diversity on campus and would have missed a lot limiting myself to a “high-tech university”. As you surmise, your son will have ample opportunity to take his math and computer science interests to the highest levels possible once in grad school.

Your very talented son has enviable options. The reasons you mention for his new interest in Yale are common. He will get a great education with impressive opportunities at either place but where will he be happiest spending four years? Palo Alto has better weather but the campus vibe at Yale is very special and the student love for the institution is real. Good luck on his decision-making. To further complicate his decision come April, the love-fest may not be over yet!

JamieBrown · February 28, 2012, 5:38pm

please communicate with this poster:

phantasmagoric

<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/members/phantasmagoric-131919.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/members/phantasmagoric-131919.html</a>

he is very knowledgable in this area and Stanford/Yale

robotmom1414 · February 28, 2012, 8:53pm

@YaleGradandDad: Thanks for the thoughtful input. Your sentiments are exactly what’s giving us all pause. Big decision!

@JamieBrown: Thanks, will do!

Yale84Alum · February 28, 2012, 11:24pm

For what it’s worth, I opted for Yale over MIT for CS many years ago, for the reasons you mentioned, then got a PhD at a top department. I never regretted it.

phantasmagoric · February 28, 2012, 11:41pm

hi robotmom1414, here’s a thread I replied to before re: Yale’s CS:

<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/yale-university/1188048-computer-science-yale.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/yale-university/1188048-computer-science-yale.html</a>

If he’s looking to get into a CS PhD program, he should be aware that the prestige of the undergrad CS department (not the university as a whole) matters when considering applicants. Harvard’s CS admissions is even explicit that the prestige of your undergrad CS program matters. One of the first things you learn about grad admissions is the importance of the letters of recommendation (second only in importance to your personal statement); you also learn that the prestige of the professor writing the rec is very important. Stanford CS has hordes of CS profs who are “legends” or “rising stars” in the field; Yale, very few. They also continually work with undergrads, as you can see on their individual pages:

[Faculty</a> | Stanford Computer Science](<a href=“http://cs.stanford.edu/faculty]Faculty”>http://cs.stanford.edu/faculty)

You should check out [CURIS[/url</a>], Stanford’s research internship program for CS. Lots of students also do the coterm program in CS and get their MS and BS in CS in 5 years. Since Stanford is larger, it’s able to offer a huge variety of courses and research areas, so that might be something to consider. Does your son know what he’s interested in within CS?

Here’s a guide on CS PhD admissions if your son is interested:

<a href=“http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~harchol/gradschooltalk.pdf[/url]”>www.cs.cmu.edu/~harchol/gradschooltalk.pdf](<a href=“CURIS”>http://curis.stanford.edu/)</a>

Re: individualized attention in the sciences, you can get plenty of that at Stanford and Yale; the difference is that Stanford has more high-quality/renowned faculty in STEM fields. With over 1000 profs in STEM fields and the ability to do independent study with a prof (wherein you do research and study for credit), it’s easy to get individualized attention at Stanford. I wouldn’t say that having strong humanities is very relevant here, unless your son plans to take humanities courses, but Stanford was recently ranked #1 in the world for arts/humanities (and has almost always been ranked in the top 5 ahead of Yale, in this ranking and in all the humanities rankings done by US News):

[Top</a> Universities for Arts & Humanities 2011-2012](<a href=“http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2011-2012/arts-and-humanities.html]Top”>http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2011-2012/arts-and-humanities.html)

As for residential college life, I think both residential systems more than satisfy students. Stanford has pretty nice housing with lots of singles and two-room doubles (so you often get your own room), organized into 80 different houses. Nearly half of those are independent houses where there’s a chef cooking your food in-house. Stanford clusters its dorms similarly into halls (there are about 11-12 clusters currently at Stanford, 12-13 counting the Row houses), each with a residence dean, an academic director, other staff, etc. Each also has its own dining facility, nearby athletic facilities, varied perks like a theater, and the standard library/conference room, computer cluster, lounge, piano, billiards and ping pong tables, etc.

The best way to go about this would be for your son to visit Stanford and talk to people in CS (doing the same for Yale), which would help to make this decision much clearer. While I do think that one could go far with a CS degree from Yale, I think Stanford is more likely to put someone on the “best” path in CS, whether that’s industry or academia.

JamieBrown · February 29, 2012, 2:53am

Well

You can do Stanford

or

You can do Yale

but

Why not do a school that has top CS and STEM departments like Stanford and all the advantages of Yale

It is called Princeton

robotmom1414 · February 29, 2012, 11:58am

@phantasmagoric: Thanks for your in-depth and detailed response. You’ve offered a lot to think about. The issues of course variety and professor prestige at Stanford are compelling. But, I must say, the link you provided on “Computer Science at Yale” sounds very positive for Yale as well. The residential life aspect of Yale is extremely appealing but, in the end, that may be more important to me than to him, I don’t know. (Differentiating between the two can be hard when you’re the parent and not the student!) Just out of curiosity, I assume that you attend(ed) Stanford. What is your relationship with Yale?

@JamieBrown: Well, he didn’t even apply to Princeton, though in hindsight I’m not sure why not. It’s ok, though, this decision is tough enough.

robotmom1414 · February 29, 2012, 12:57pm

If I may, I’d like to add one more bit of information that may help with any advice the CC community might offer in making this decision: a description of my son. He’s not the competitive type. He has never been one to care at all about accolades, trophies, ribbons, etc. He absolutely loves learning math and cs and has taught himself most of what he knows in those areas, testing out of many h.s. classes. Actually, he doesn’t care all that much about grades, except that obviously he gets good ones. He spends hours helping his friends with their math and science homework. Finally, he’s no one-dimensional nerdy type, either. He’s into pop culture, politics, music (playing, composing and listening), etc. Does this description lend itself more obviously to Stanford’s or Yale’s culture?

retrohippo · February 29, 2012, 1:40pm

To me, that sounds like the ideal Yalie - but then I know too little about Stanford to give a fair appraisal.
Happy decisions! I’m sure he’ll love wherever he ends up (because it’d be hard not to)!

ewho · February 29, 2012, 3:20pm

@robotmom1414, let your son talk to students at Harvard, Princeton and MIT, and he will find out where to go.

wjb · February 29, 2012, 4:58pm

robotmom: I can’t speak to your son’s academic interests, but Yale and Stanford have very different academic, intellectual, and social cultures. You already know that fit is about much more than academic offerings. If possible, your son should attend admitted students days at both schools. I bet that will make his decision clear.

phantasmagoric · February 29, 2012, 5:07pm

robotmom1414,

I did go to Stanford, which I chose over Yale; I spent some time there doing research with a prof and nearly went to Yale for my PhD in CS (I work in a very specialized area of CS that few top schools excel at).

The post I linked to regarding Yale CS was mostly to dispel continued rumors on this forum that Yale CS “sucks” - people have this obsession with the top 10 and think anything outside of it is considered not worthwhile. (People like to say Harvard “sucks” at engineering when in reality it’s decent.) As I explained there, Yale CS used to be one of the best (top 5-10), and during this time it produced tons of well-known people in academia and industry. Sometime around the death of the department chair, the department started falling apart - faculty left, research and courses were cut, the facilities were changed, etc. Today, Yale is still strong in CS compared to the vast majority - having a top 20 or 30 CS department is quite an accomplishment. But it’s a very far cry from having the perennially ranked #1 CS department which dominates every other school in pretty much any accolade - # Turing Award winners (the “Nobel Prize” of CS - nearly half of them have gone to Stanford profs), # companies founded (>5,000), # alumni as professors in top departments, etc. In other words, yeah I think Yale’s great for CS, but it’s no Stanford. ;)

The Charles Babbage Institute offers a bunch of interesting “oral history” interviews from pioneers in CS, and many of them focus on the essential role Stanford has played throughout the development of CS - from the formation of the field at Stanford in the 1950s to the growth of Silicon Valley over the ensuing decades to the influence and renown of professors today. Some of them also cover Yale’s CS department in the early days of the field. Here are some with descriptions:

[History</a> of computer science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“History of computer science - Wikipedia”>History of computer science - Wikipedia)

The description you gave of your son indicates he would thrive in either culture, but one caveat: if he enjoys learning/working in STEM fields and in helping/working with others, the edge definitely goes to Stanford. About 20% of Yale students graduate in STEM fields each year; that number is closer to 50% at Stanford. Arts have a much greater presence at Yale, similar to the presence of STEM fields on Stanford’s campus (i.e. STEM is to Yale as the arts are to Stanford; of course both are strong in the humanities and social sciences).

Here’s something for your son to do: to go through the bulletins for Stanford and Yale (and any other school he’s considering) and compare the course offerings in areas he’s interested in. It doesn’t matter if one or the other offers tons and tons of courses - if they’re not in an area that he’s interested in, it’s a moot point. At Stanford there’s a huge variety of courses, so he’s likely to find lots of courses up his alley, but more importantly undergrads can take almost any grad-level course they want - and most CS undergrads take many grad classes. This works out well for those going for a PhD, since many PhD programs (including Stanford’s) allow you to transfer credit from grad-level classes taken as an undergrad.

<a href=“http://explorecourses.stanford.edu%5B/url%5D”>http://explorecourses.stanford.edu</a>
<a href=“Welcome | Office of the University Printer”>Welcome | Office of the University Printer;

When I was in high school, I received likely letters from Yale, Stanford, and Harvard. LLs work magnificently well because students are too blinded by getting in, and being fawned over as one of the top, to realize that it’s all a ploy. I know I was pretty wide-eyed and didn’t really consider that these colleges had just successfully executed a spectacular “influencing exercise” on me in sending me a LL. Coming down from the kool-aid, I realized that likely letters shouldn’t have an influence at all - they’re a cheap ploy to get students to attend by making them feel “special,” and they allow colleges to court these students without having much substance to offer (e.g. strong academics in the student’s interest).

Think about it: the only thing that’s different from before is that your son has a likely letter in hand now. Yale hasn’t changed; it still has the same infrastructure and resources that it had when your son first applied, and he would have gotten to see all of that during Yale’s normal admit weekend. But the LL itself is enough to make someone feel more strongly about a college and thus to attend; that was the case for me, and I think for most LL recipients. That’s exactly the effect they want to have. Don’t let it fool you - choose based on infrastructure/support that your son finds relevant and, of course, on personal fit. The best part here is that in this case there’s no “wrong” choice. I might say there’s a “better” choice but both are great schools that your son would probably thrive at.

JamieBrown · February 29, 2012, 6:14pm

^^^^well said

robotmom1414 · March 1, 2012, 2:02pm

Thanks for all the useful input, everyone. Seems the bottom line is that he needs to visit the schools during their admit weekends and just see how he feels. Although I wish it were more of a slam-dunk decision (and didn’t necessitate more trips), I’m happy to know that he can’t make a wrong choice :-)

JamieBrown · March 1, 2012, 4:03pm

^^^^^^only a handful of students in the world every year get to make a choice between Stanford and Yale.

it is one of those “can’t lose” choices

You are a very fortunate mom.

phantasmagoric · March 1, 2012, 4:27pm

Something that may or may not be a good thing to your son: Stanford is changing most of its undergraduate requirements, starting next year. The 3-quarter freshman sequence “Introduction to the Humanities” (IHUM) is being replaced by a one-quarter, field-specific “Thinking Matters” course in your area of choosing. The GERs are being changed somewhat as well. The goal is to make it easy for students in unit-intensive majors (mostly the sciences and engineering) to explore classes outside their main interest, to study abroad, etc. And as a result, you’re mostly able to stay away from classes in areas you don’t enjoy (e.g. the humanities if you’re more of a STEM person, or math/engineering if you’re more of a HASS person). They’re also talking about requiring all freshman to take an introductory seminar (where the max size is 15 students and the average is 10).

Fun fact: in 2010, Stanford released data on cross-admits with Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and MIT. There were 359 people who were admitted to both Yale and Stanford. 107 went to Yale, 107 went to Stanford, and the rest went to another school altogether. I can see why you’re divided. ;)

robotmom1414 · March 1, 2012, 4:42pm

^ Ok, that’s NOT helping ;-)

(Interesting changes on the undergrad req’s,though. Pluses and minuses there, too, however).

Oh, and you had asked what areas of CS he’s into: AI, Vision (sensory) systems, cryptography.

phantasmagoric · March 2, 2012, 1:32am

You mentioned humanities in the OP - does your son want to take humanities as well? If he wants the intense humanities sequence (like IHUM, which is being replaced), there’s something very similar to Yale’s Directed Studies: it’s called Structured Liberal Education (SLE), a 3-quarter freshman sequence of classes covering classics, philosophy, etc. It’s residential - 100+ students in FloMo hall (although I heard they’re growing it to 300), and your classes for it (2) are in your dorm. You get rid of your PWR 1 and PWR 2 requirements, as well as humanities and ethics requirements.

If he’s interested in AI or computer vision, Stanford is the very best - equal to MIT and CMU. Fei Fei Li does really interesting work on this (and has had a lot of press coverage IIRC):

[Stanford</a> Vision Lab; Prof. Fei-Fei Li](<a href=“http://vision.stanford.edu/]Stanford”>http://vision.stanford.edu/)

I don’t know of any ranking for ‘cryptography’ per se, but in security Stanford and MIT are the two top schools for it. There were a few cryptography courses to take. He should look into

Yale84Alum · March 3, 2012, 8:23am

An early comment in this thread was a concern that going to Yale rather than Stanford for CS would detract from someone’s ability to go on to a top department for grad school. I said that I had opted for Yale CS and gone on to a great department, and a subsequent reply mentioned the department “going downhill” sometime later.

I ran this by some people I know in the department, and was reassured that their grads do just fine in that regard, exactly what I expected.

This isn’t to say that Yale CS and Stanford CS are equivalent. The comments earlier about the proximity to Silicon Valley and the large number of acclaimed faculty are true. But so are the comments that campus life at the two places have significant differences (I’ll still take Yale’s residential college system over anything). And there is another factor: the total number of grads in CS at Yale each year is fairly low, comparable to when I was there. This means it is much easier to get to know the other students and for the faculty to get to know the students well. It’s true that recommendation letters matter, and that reputation can play a role. But which is a better letter, one from a well-known professor who doesn’t know the student really well, or one from a reasonably well known professor who knows the student extremely well? And the faculty at Yale are no slouches … anything from a professor at Yale in any department will be taken seriously at any university in the world, whether the recipient knows their name or not!

Finally, I’ll just reiterate a comment from others in this thread: it’s a great decision to have to make, and going to any of these schools will be fantastic. Just don’t be scared off from Yale CS based on the earlier generalizations and claims … that’s not fair.

Signed,
A proud and successful CS Yale graduate. :)

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