@InfinityMan Unless you belong to some extremely liberal branch of Islam, you’ve misrepresented its rules governing marriage in post #149. You, as a male, can marry any woman who is from a “people of the Book.” In fact you can marry more than one of them. A Muslim women, though, can ONLY marry a Muslim man.
One cousin’s spouse has converted to Judaism and is now studying to become a bat mitzvah. Their young daughter has been in Hebrew Day school since kindergarten but they just switched her to public school after mom lost her job at the end of last school year. Even before that it was a stretch for them and when she told my sister they were putting their groceries on credit card she told them to take child out of that school. As this school year began they really had no choice and put her in the public school even though mom got another job, but not is not earning as much as she was before.
I also had a friend whose husband converted. Then he became way, way, way more religious then his wife - even changing his name to Moishe. He spends all of the sabbath in temple, wont drive, insisted on a kosher home, etc. She grew up Reform and it was a 180 from her life before he converted.
Tbh, scared me off of even mentioning the C word to my H.
I married into a secular Jewish family. I was raised Catholic. When I was pregnant with my oldest my H realized he was uncomfortable with raising Christian children. I felt that I wanted my children to have some formal religious instruction. I converted but did not tell anyone including my parents nor his. We raised our children in the Jewish religion. My kids consider themselves Jews but don’t feel like they have to date or marry someone Jewish. Two are in serious relationships with wonderful mates who are not Jewish. One is a difference race and we have no problem with that. We love her. Both SO are not religious. I know my D has said she isn’t sure how she will raise her children but that she will make sure they know something of her faith. I think it would be difficult if their potential spouses had a strong religious belief that put a lot of faith in Jesus and the belief that if you don’t believe in Jesus you are going to hell. I’m a firm believer in that one can be a good person regardless of what they believe.
I have a very good friend who belongs to a church that is Christian but I don’t think affiliated with any mainstream church. They have lots of guitar singing and a surf ministry and appeal to a lot of young people. Everyone I have met through her is lovely. Kind hearted, generous with their time. One of her children strayed from the church and had various live in relationships and eventually married a wonderful young woman who is from China, different race and no religion. My friend prays that her S and his wife find The Lord. She isn’t able to respect their beliefs. I think it comes from a place of love because she believes their in only one Way and that is through Jesus.
I would have a hard time with a grandchild being raised to believe their way is the only true way.
My siblings married a mix of Christian, Jewish and even a Muslim. MyMom who wasn’t one to hold back her opinions was surprisingly welcoming. She always felt she “won” having her kids and Grandkids on Christmas.
Thanks to all of you for your honest insights and opinions. Consolation: What a shame about the woman who converted to Judaism & her unforgiving in-laws. Many times, most of the time, the converts become MORE religious than their spouses. I know of a Cantor (a Jewish clergy who sings and chants) who grew up Episcopalian and is now not only a convert, but a Cantor! Yikes, that is commitment on their part.
I would like to think in today’s world that there is tolerance, but to me it is still important to do my share of carrying on the Jewish race by marrying someone Jewish and raising my children the same. I would just hate to see such an important part of my life no longer exist when my grandchildren grow up because everyone intermarried and raised their children to believe in anything they wanted to.
“I imagine ANY mother or father for that matter would LOVE to see their child marry similar…Indians marry other Indians, Italians marry other Italians”
I don’t agree with this hypothesis.
I’ve known more than a few people who converted to Judaism just to please potential in-laws. I think it’s so easy to pretend, that it’s a meaningless sham.
My goodness! I just got home and caught up on 6 pages of posts. Lots of interesting reading. Too clarify - I will love and support my sons, future d-i-ls and future grandchildren - regardless of religion. I prefer they marry Jewish, but I am preparing myself mentally for a different outcome.
I appreciate the posts that understand the somewhat unique position of Jewish people. Centuries of persecution has influenced our need for self-preservation. When I think of my Polish born grandparents - my Judaism takes on a deeper meaning. My sons lack that connection.
I am worried because if the 3 recent marriages I have seen in our extended family - between young Jewish men and non-Jewish girls. In all 3 cases - the families are functioning as Christian households that attend church. The Jewish grandparents seem to be on the outside looking in. As someone pointed out - it may also have to do with the daughters being closer to their parents and other strains between the daughter and the Jewish in-laws.
My goal is to have a better relationship and connection with any future non-Jewish d-i-l than what I have observed elsewhere in our family. I am sorry if I have offended anyone by saying that I would find Christian grandchildren to be heartbreaking. It is not because they are Christian per se - it is because they are not Jewish. My parents are Jewish, my grandparents were Jewish, my great grandparents were Jewish, etc., etc. It is the break in that chain - the severing of that legacy and tradition that pains me.
I would HOPE that anyone that converts to another religion does so because of their own personal interest and not the interest of the spouse or the in laws. If they do so to please a family, it sounds doomed from the start. It’s also okay if you don’t agree with “my hypothesis”, however it is on all tv shows & movies! My big Fat Greek wedding…I know of many people that get all excited when their child finds another “Italian” or “Asian” or whatever to date & subsequently marry.
There’s a wonderful film out right now called “Meet the Patels”, a documentary made by a young man in the US whose family came from India. He’s ready to get married, had broken up with his (US-born, caucasian) girlfriend because he couldn’t bring himself to tell his family about her, and decided to allow his parents to take charge of making an arranged marriage for him. I’m not going to say what happens because spoilers, but it is touching and funny as heck and touches on many of the issues in this thread.
I strongly disagree. I very much think of US culture as being more a chunky stew than a puree. We have a common culture, yes, but we also have distinct and unique subcultures as well. Here in Southern California I see the richness of this: areas which are predominantly Chinese or Japanese or Iranian or Indian or Salvadorian or any one of a number of different cultures. I can get excellent kosher shawarma or a sabich at a restaurant in an area with a large Israeli population, and then go out to a festival celebrating Day of the Dead. Or, take a look at the recent ceremony at the site of the World Trade Center when the Pope visited NYC. There were clergy representing many different religions, from many different ethnic backgrounds.
“Having Christian grandchildren would be heartbreaking - I believe it would be a real wedge between us.”
Ditto, but worse for us, we are atheist.
Think about it - either you believe in a loving god or you don’t. If you do, then he will NOT be peeved about your grandchildren worshipping him in a different way.
It’s the opposite of Pascal’s gambit, if I don’t believe in a god, and I am wrong, a loving god would look at what I did in my life and decide whether I was good or bad, and forget if I followed organized religion. And any other kind of a god other than loving doesn’t deserve my worship, so I’d rather get eternal damnation (or whatever) instead of play the game of a vengeful god.
As for race, sorry, but:
And as for people who judge based on stats, I feel sorry for y’all. Please just be very very VERY happy if your child finds someone to love, who loves them, and who will care for them and their children. Black, white, Muslim, Jew, Christian, atheist, Asian, opposite gender, same gender. If anyone can find love and make it last, that is what we need.
Walls beget walls.
(so tell me - which is worse as a DIL - Christian who goes to church, Christian identifying who doesn’t go to church, or atheist? I have several ostensibly Jewish friends who do not believe in a god, but keep connected (to the point of sending their kids to a kibbutz) because they must do to family commitments. Is an atheist who lets the kids do whatever when they are old enough okay? Is a Reform Jew okay if you are conservative? Is a Conservative Jew okay if you are Reform?)
^^pizzagirl:
Not sure how it would be so easy to pretend. Converting to another religion is A LOT of work! Lots of time commitment, studying, learning a foreign language…anyone that does it halfheartedly should NOT undertake it if not serious.
Many times if someone decides to convert way before they date, then it certainly shows how dedicated & serious the person is about changing their religious beliefs. If they wait till they find a potential spouse and then convert, you hope they are doing it to know more about the spouse’s religion, to be unified in raising children and to be on the same page. Ivanka Trump converted when she married a Jewish man. Chelsea Clinton also married a Jewish man, but did not convert.
The point is that conversion should not be taken lightly or to please anyone but yourself. Certainly not to please in laws.
" I imagine ANY mother or father for that matter would LOVE to see their child marry similar…Indians marry other Indians, Italians marry other Italians, Asians marry other Asians…"
Well, no. What version of “similar” would my biracial D marry? Italian/Polish like me? Just the Polish? Just the Italian? African American, like Dad (though there’s some evidence that his family, like many black families, has Caucasian ancestry dating back to the 1800’s)? Or should H and I, and others like us have “stuck to our own kind”? I had kind of hoped that that type of thinking was on the way out.
Side note to Magnatron-aren’t you in the Seattle area? You never know…
@rockvillemom, if one of your sons married a woman who converted to Judaism and raised their children as Jews, would you feel that that would be preserving the legacy?
BTW, I have to comment that I am a bit freaked out by the references to the Jewish “race” here. It is something I’d expect to emanate from profound anti-semites. I’ve never thought of Jews as a race…live and learn.
@jonri You’re right. I thought I mentioned the difference in my post (typing on phone) but I must have forgotten. Everything else I said still stands though. There’s also a stipulation that the convert man delay the marriage to make sure he didn’t convert to just marry her. I think the point is that the conversion should not be seen as a technecality.
People talk about conversion to judaism like its a 1-2-3 and you’re done process. That is not true. It requires a lot of study, class attendance (usually) and meetings with the rabbi.
@Consolation - yes, absolutely. If she converted - that would be wonderful. If she did not convert - but the grandchildren were raised in the Jewish tradition - that would also be lovely. Expecting someone to convert is a lot to ask.
I have never thought of Judaism as a race - but it is more than a religion. It is my cultural identity.
I used the term Jewish race and I apologize. I really don’t consider being Jewish a race, I was just typing quickly and I guess that’s how it popped into my mind. I agree with rockville mom, it’s my cultural identity.
@rockvillemom, I feel after your initial post your position has softened up a bit.
You have chosen your spouse and raised your children your way. When your children are adults, it is only fair for them to choose for themselves. It is their turn.
If and when your (non-Jewish)grandchildren arrive, your instincts should be a grandmother first and a Jew second. If your love towards your grandchildren is unconditional, I can guarantee that you won’t become a second tier grandparent. Only those grandparents who try to impose their selfish wills or guilt trips on their children and their families will become outsiders.
My mother was genuinely interested in converting, but it was my father who stopped her. In any case, it wouldn’t have assuaged his parents. Remember, back then, many felt the woman had to be born Jewish for the identity to transmit to the children. (No idea how this is viewed, today.)
And then my mother gave me a very Christian first name, which really undid my paternal grandmother.
My concern has been that my kid not marry a slacker, a mean spirited person, crook, or cheater, someone who dismisses their interests or the notion of family bonds. (One of them did have a SO who was going nowhere in life, isolated, and dismissive of family ties. I was worried. It didn’t last.)
It’s just imo, but it is possible to raise a child with affection and respect for the best in multiple religions/cultures. And then, they can still transmit that multiplicity to their own children.
I know somebody who converted to Judaism to marry, and I think her husband’s parents were a big part of that decision. She is now Orthodox, only wears long skirts, covers her hair, etc.