With the faith issue, I would look at minimal adult child marrying another - love God, love one another, and be open to having children. Hopefully willing/able to have a sacramental marriage, so DD could continue with the sacrament of Eucharist in her faith.
Strong in faith is different than the ‘Cultural’ - be it Catholic, Jewish, or other.
A total absence of faith or rejection in belief in God (Atheist) would probably not get very far with either DD.
Our society has more and more secular influences and breakdown of families. The nuclear family is key, so the foundations of marriage is key.
Others may find a good foundation of marriage in other ways, but this is a dimension important to us.
I think that people have talked about converting to Judaism in the context of people who have completed the process, without getting into what that entailed. I know I did, and I certainly didn’t mean to imply that it was something that one could decide to do one day and it’s done.
@rockvillemom, I met the person I know who converted after she did so. It wasn’t something she did just to marry her H, although I doubt she would have thought of doing so without that circumstance. Her H wasn’t an observant Jew, in terms of keeping a Kosher home, attending services, and so on, but he was strongly culturally Jewish. She was unfulfilled by the religion she grew up in, and was happy in her Judaism. Like many people, they participated far more in communal activities after having children.
I would point out that people have also talked about converting to Catholicism without getting into the nitty-gritty, and I think that the process is not dissimilar.
It depends what you mean by “secular influences.” If you mean commercially-driven popular culture, yes indeed. If you mean secular humanism, which is an ethically and morally serious thing, you are in my opinion off the mark.
According to research, the divorce rate among conservative Christians is much higher than among atheists and agnostics.
This thread has brought to mind the efforts that many indigenous people’s tribes are making to preserve their cultures, including having laws that come into play when children who are of native American descent are in need of adoption or are the subject of custody disputes. All very interesting; I appreciate all the posts here.
Sometimes people do things short of conversion out of respect for their spouse’s religion. One of the most common, I think, is for the spouse who is less invested in a specific faith to accept the idea of raising children in the more committed spouse’s faith.
And there are others. My father-in-law did one of them. In his 50s, after a divorce from his first wife, he married a Catholic widow. This marriage was not valid in the eyes of the Catholic church because, as a divorced man, he was not free to marry. His wife was uncomfortable about this but could live with it. Some members of her family were much more strongly opposed. One very close relative refused to attend the wedding, which was a civil ceremony. (The fact that my father-in-law was Jewish bothered no one, by the way.)
Several years later, his former wife died. This made him a widower in the eyes of the Catholic church and therefore free to marry. And a little while later, to please his wife (and shut up her family), he agreed to have a second wedding ceremony, conducted privately by a Catholic priest. To him, this was nonsense. He considered himself married from the time of their original civil ceremony. But it was important to her. And what was important to her was important to him.
My three kids who were raised Catholic (and who still “are” but who all question many of the beliefs and so who I would say now (as I) are more spiritual than aligned with one faith) are FASCINATED by my mom’s side of the family - a large group of aunts, cousins, etc. - who are Jewish. They love hearing of the traditions. We have attended a service or two with relatives and they have been very taken with the rituals, routines and the warmth of the congregation.
I personally love that they have close experience and good experience with more than one religion - I think it really rounds their world spiritually.
I have very much enjoyed reading this thread - many insightful and though-provoking answers. As we enter this phase of parenting, I think most of us have given thought and/or discussed marriage, long-term relationships, etc with our kids and probably (we have) expressed our opinions about many issues discussed in this thread.
@rockvillemom - I totally understand your concerns and, at least with my Jewish friends, it is the norm. I have had this same discussion MANY times with a close friend. Both she and her husband would be “disappointed” (in the way you have described) if either of their kids married a non-Jewish person although they realize it is always a possibility. Of their 2 kids, their son is much more likely to marry outside his faith than their daughter but who knows what the future will bring? Although, I will say, it is very hard to imagine their daughter even dating a non-Jewish guy, much less marrying one!
One last anecdote: My husband was brought up in a very Catholic household, he is one of 6 kids. My FIL taught RCIA (conversion classes), attended daily mass, was a Eucharistic minister, sent all 6 kids to 12 years of catholic school etc. etc. He fully expected all 6 of his kids to marry in the Catholic church, have lots of catholic babies, and live very catholic lives.
Well…the first wedding in the family was his oldest child, a daughter, who married a Jewish man. When his D first brought him home, my FIL knew he was Jewish and (surprisingly) was outwardly fine with it although I imagine that privately he was sad. Interestingly, his bigger concern (by far) was the marital status of this young Jewish man’s parents…“are his parents DIVORCED”, he asked. He was WAY more concerned about divorce than about religion. Go figure!! When he was told that his parents were happily married, he was thrilled and never once showed anything but unconditional love to this young man. I do know he bemoaned the fact they never baptized their 4 children or gave them any religious education at all. I think he would have been happy if they had brought them up Jewish, instead of nothing but he never let that interfere with their relationship. On a happy note, my SIL and BIL have been very happily married for 35 years. My very catholic FIL adored his Jewish SIL. They had a very special bond and remained extremely close until my FIL passed away 2 years ago.
Just want to throw in that I, my boyfriend, and several of my best friends come from mixed Jewish-Christian families and I have NOT noticed that we lean more Christian than Jewish. Most everyone went to Birthright, most consider themselves Jewish, and a couple are active in the Jewish community. This will do nothing to prevent you from wishing that your children marry Jewish, but hopefully allay your fears about what happens if they don’t.
@marian the reason it was important to the Catholic wife was that if her marriage was not ‘valid’ as far as being a sacramental marriage (yes we know they are H-W with civil ceremony) she was not able to partake in Holy Eucharist. He was a committed H; he just didn’t believe in the graces from a sacramental marriage. But he did it to please his wife, and it allowed her to fully embrace her faith with being able to partake in Holy Eucharist. We believe at Mass the bread and wine become Christ’s body and blood - body, blood, soul, and divinity. Belief is belief. Miracle at every Mass.
Things have changed since the 1950’s - the first marriage now could go through a church annulment (the process is becoming more available, and under Pope Francis, he is also wanting to make sure the resources are available for the annulment process to be available), and then the marriage could be valid. A Vegas 1st wedding is more easy to have annulled. It really depends on meeting the annulment criteria. Someone re-married after a divorce from a sacramental marriage is not in total communion with the Church. Being able to have the Eucharist at Mass is very important to practicing Catholics. I know a couple that chose to not have sex while H was seeking an annulment so they could have the Eucharist; they had a long civil marriage - her first H had died many years ago, and she decided to become Catholic years later; he had 3 children (now in their 30’s/40’s) from his first marriage. He was granted a church annulment and they had a sacramental marriage by the priest - they did it as part of a Saturday evening Mass.
Because one lumps in a who slew of wide beliefs and practices when one claims ‘fundamental Christians’ and divorce rate. Yes there are many protestant fundamental Christians that have no problem with multiple marriages. Even many mainstream protestant churches/members. Some will work harder at their second marriage because they don’t want to be a ‘two time loser’ - my sister saw this as a Minister’s wife.
There is a very wide Jewish community and diversity in beliefs and practices - I also think divorce statistics would need to be detailed enough and not lumped together.
I do think when there is compatibility - so if two Atheists or two Agnostics choose to be married, they may have a lot of other compatible areas that has their marriages last.
If someone is marrying a Catholic and has a sacramental marriage (with or without a Mass, having at least a priest celebrant/co-celebrant) the non-Catholic has to agree to be open to children and raising any children from the marriage in the Catholic faith. Who knows what happens after the wedding - many Catholics do fall away from the faith. Many non-Catholic spouses do attend Mass with their H/W; some eventually do go through RCIA and join the Catholic Church, even after many years.
My cousin married a divorced woman with a child who was Catholic. They had a non-Catholic wedding. (her first husband was, I believe, Jewish). My cousin was very nominally Christian (Easter baskets and Santa but no services of any kind, which is also how I was raised).
After he and his wife had a son, cousin converted to Catholicism so his wife could get an annulment on ground of first marriage not being to a Catholic (at least that’s what I was told), and he could be part of son’s Catholic baptism. I may have the story slightly wrong, but I know that his conversion tied into her getting the annulment. He is not in any shape or form really Catholic, thirty years later, though she practices very conscientiously.
This thread makes me so thankful for my parents and in laws. My dh and I are interracial. Our parents also come from four different religions: Jewish, Buddhist, Protestant and Catholic.
No one has ever once suggested any of us change religions, or that they have any preference for who marries whom or what we do. We celebrate Christmas and Rosh Hashana and honor the ancestors. No one has ever tried to influence our kids to pick their particular religion. We are raising our kids to be multicultural atheists.
I really have no preference for my kids, except that they chose an accepting family. I figure these days that should be pretty easy for them to find, some of the posters in this thread notwithstanding.
I second that. If you are not prepared to welcome with open arms, please raise your kids not to get interested in people from outside. As someone said earlier, the last thing I would want for my precious D is falling for someone whose family wouldn’t accept her with open arms.
@LakeWashington Re ISIS: I tend to not pay attention to the ravings of lunatics. Committing atrocities that are condemned by the religion they “follow” and then citing that religion shows that they are severly (extremely) misguided at best. Like I said upthread, those who use religion to excuse their horrid behavior are pathetic. To tie this to the purpose of the thread, my parents often told to not be taken in by other people’s apparent ‘devoutness’, but to examine their character. So they told me to make sure my wife is of good moral ground first and then and only then should I look into how she adheres to her religion. If one has a terrible character, then chances are religion is just an outlet for their agression.
Not sure who else is worried. I doubt many are. Maybe Chinese are, Guys we may go extinct if you don’t marry fellow chinese.
I second that. What is astounding to me is how people focus on their disappointment concerning grandchildren but not on spouse who is marrying into an unwelcoming family. If you are not prepared to welcome with open arms, please raise your kids not to get interested in people from outside. As someone said earlier, the last thing I would want for my precious D is falling for someone whose family wouldn’t accept her with open arms unles her husband-to-be is ready to disown his family.
Our expat circle overseas is comprised of mixed-culture families: mixed-nationality, mixed-race, mixed-faith. Since that’s normal to us, the angst in the US over a mixed-marriage looks like a tempest in a teacup.
There are all sorts of reasons why a spouse would be “unwelcome” other than bigotry. Sometimes people are unwelcome because they are unpleasant. One person’s precious D is another person’s monster-in-law. I have personally had a sister-in-law who was insanely difficult and was, therefore, never welcomed with open arms.
