@wis75, I won’t diss you. But when I wrote the post on the previous page, I had the same concern of potentially being dissed – even though I may not use the same strong language as yours, I actually agree with most (but not all) of your points. The most important thing from my point of view is that everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion and choices – as long as s/he also resoects others in the same. An “iffy” thing (or grey area?) here is whether people are willing to accept that their own family members will be treated in the same way – each one can make his/her own choice without having to have any concern or fear of hurting other family member’s “feeling”.
Wis75, I’m deeply offended by your post.
- People have an obligation to respect the religious traditions of others (within reason). That doesn't mean they are obliged to think the beliefs of all religions are equally valid; in fact, "believing" in a religion in theory means that by definition you believe that your religious narrative is correct to the exclusion of others. In practice, it is far more complicated than that for many people, including myself, but it is just silly to blame someone for considering their religion "supreme," at least as far as truth claims are concerned. Either you believe in monotheism, or you don't. Either you believe that Christ is the messiah, or you don't. If you believe that there is a single God but that Christ was not divine, you think Judaism is "more right" than Christianity. That isn't an inherently hateful or disrespectful position to take.
- There is nothing shameful or bigoted about wanting to preserve your own distinct cultural and religious traditions WITHIN REASON. Cutting off your children and grandchildren because they choose a different religion is hateful. Behaving rudely to in-laws from a group not your own is hateful. Being disappointed, and even deeply pained that your child has chosen to reject a beloved religious tradition and/or decided not to pass it down to his or her own children is human.
- Context matters. I refuse to apologize for the fact that the history of the Jewish people does make me more committed to the idea of passing on Judaism to my own children, should I have any, than it might otherwise. I'm also not going to apologize for being concerned that Judaism a) will die out or b) will be left alive only in its most extreme forms. Judaism has been and is a major and beloved part of my life. It is a religion with a long, often painful, sometimes shameful, but frequently beautiful and admirable tradition. The idea that that tradition would cease to continue in the form that I so love is unimaginably tragic to me.
- People can and do convert to Judaism, so it is not entirely dependent on who your parents were. I believe rockvillemom has said she would be totally fine with a DIL who converted to Judaism, so this has nothing to do with blood purity. In any case, there are plenty of religions in which you are considered a member by birth, and many of non-religious groups where this is also the case. Is it also offensive to take pride in being American because of birthright citizenship? Is it offensive to value African-American or Celtic or Native American heritage? That's something that can only be conferred by birth as well.
Valuing your own group is not the same thing as thinking other groups are less. I love my family more than your family, too. That isn’t because I think my family is better; it is simply because it is mine.
@wis75 Those ancient tribes often stayed together because Jews were forced to live together in ghettos, forced to earn a living in certain ways and prohibited from others.
My husband’s family was non-religious and totally assimilated into Hungarian society. They were educated and cultured. I’m told that some young family members shared some of the same talents my own d’s exhibit in art and music. But since my father in law was the only family member who survived the holocaust, I have no first hand knowledge. Since my husband’s sister never married, my d’s are the only family members left from a vibrant family. It’s funny, but Jewish identity was less important to them than it is to my daughters who are the survivors.
My d’s are very liberal and have many friends of all races and religion. I do not know who they will someday marry, but I am fairly certain that they will raise their children in the Jewish religion. My youngest, has been particularly affected by the recent increase in anti-semitism. She is disturbed by on line communities and blogs that have been particularly vocal against Jews in her millennial world. And I am not talking about discussions about Zionism, BDS or Israelis treatment of Palestinians (because she is very liberal.). What scares her is the blatant hatred of Jews that is out there and growing among many young people.
Huh- why obligated??? The word respect is earned, not accorded because of mass belief. Think of a better term. That’s imposing your views of respect on others. I disagree. Nothing to respect in things I totally disagree with- especially those that try to make me lesser. Let them do it unhindered as long as it doesn’t interfere with others- but, respect isn’t part of it.
There IS religious bigotry anytime you believe one way is the only correct way.
Sorry- but no group of people is any more special than any other. Context- what about the defeated people wiped out thousands of years ago only known in history or mythology books??? btw- the victors write the histories- one sided stories have been passed along for generations. Who really were the bad guys in any story? Depends on whose account you read- and who was alive to tell their side of the story. I thought some Jews believe the mother has to be Jewish.
Separate ethnicity from religion. Nothing wrong with any genetic background, but so much wrong with believing one is the only, best, proper, chosen et al. Disliking Israel does not mean disliking a person who has ties there. Politics versus individuals.
I do not care if I offend you. You have offended me- that is to everyone who has beliefs that tell me I am excluded or wrong. All religions do that.
Why can’t we expand our group to include those with good morals and ethics? Belief in a god is not the same. It is a problem when a person is fine with someone converting to their brand of religious mythology but not the converse- having a relative leave theirs to convert to a different one. Put the shoe on the other foot- how insulting to devalue another person’s religion when their morals and ethics could be the same?
Well it is either Saturday night or Sunday morning so all you believers can feel superior to poor souls like me who won’t, can’t, share your mythology.
Final word- if one concept were correct why would there be so many conflicting ones???
It is so good to be above all of that. Religious as well as intellectual elitism, to get back to CC roots.
Many of the Jews I know are agnostics. There is an inherent discourse in Judaism that allows for questioning and discussion. Rules are interpreted and then reinterpreted. Conversation is encouraged. Few follow the religion in the sense of following all the rules. Many secular Jews follow it in terms of learning morality and a value system.
Few Jews, short of those who have distanced themselves from secular society, would say that our religion is right and yours is wrong. If anything, most Jews would probably say our religion and customs hold many of the same core values, but not all the same beliefs…so leave us to practice ours our way, and you practice yours your way.
The idea of Jews being the chosen people, stems from the idea that Jews were chosen to have a covenant with God and start the first monolithic religion. Jews were also chosen to receive gods basic rules when Moses was given the 10 commandments.
No where is that meant to be interpreted as we were chosen to be special and we are above all others. But it is true that there is a belief among modern day Jews that we have a tie to these ancient tribes that helped the world by setting some basic written moral beliefs. And pride in it.
I don’t recall every writing that my religion was “right” or morally superior or anything close to that. I’m talking about me and my immediate family and my beliefs. More cultural than religious. I guess if you feel the need to pick a fight, go for it, but this is the extent to which I am going to engage someone who jumps in after a few hundred posts and so deliberately misses my concern.
Anyone else read “Far From the Tree” by Andrew Solomon? He discusses how our families raise us with “vertical” identities–our genetic and cultural heritage–but we each have our own “horizontal” identities where we differ from our natal families. Solomon looks at extreme versions of horizontal identity, with chapters on Downs syndrome and Transgender and Autism, to name a few.
The chapters that are most relevant to the discussion here imo are the Deaf and Dwarf chapters. Both of these communities have very strong identities and cultures that have grown up around their physical differences. In the Deaf chapter, one person remarks that this is the best time in history to be deaf: there are tremendous supports, there’s a community rich in distinctive culture…and yet it’s a culture that could end soon as more parents of Deaf children opt for medical interventions (e.g. cochlear implants) that bring their children more fully into the mainstream hearing community.
I’m not saying that being Jewish or intermarriage is a disability, or that the struggles of parents whose children are schizophrenic or conceived in rape (another two chapters) are equivalent to that of the parents who share RVM’s concern. Rather, looking at these extreme examples of horizontal identity where parents are trying to adapt to having children whose needs differ so much from their own is a way of looking at our own family structures and relationships.
Wis75:
I don’t believe that Judaism has an exclusive claim on truth either. However, believing one is “right” isn’t bigotry. It is having an opinion.
You clearly seem to feel superior to religious people. In fact, you believe that they are “wrong.” Is that bigotry, or belief?
Am I misreading a post or was a Jew just told to get over being a persecuted minority? In 2015? When anti-Semitism is resurgent.
“No wonder everyone else is against your belief system?” Everyone else against the Jews? Absolutely not. But there is a name for that.
And that her religion is not sacred? Umm. What else is any religion but sacred?
That particular post was the definition of bigotry. Gypsy? Ok. Jew? Brainwashed, bigoted, tribal. “your version of history?” I hope that doesn’t mean what it sounds like it means. Religious bigotry pertains to How others observe their religion, not who an individual hopes to have her child marry. That is motherhood.
And Christians feel and hold a deep and profound connection as descendants of the people of the covenant because we share the same history and heritage.
I can’t imagine, wis, who you think gives you enough thought to consider themselves superior to you. Obviously you have issues with Jewish people and I hope you feel better now that you have told them what you think. It is very sad that you have had or imagined bad experiences with religion. If you joined me at my church today you would be given the kiss of peace and called sister.
“WHO decided YOUR religion was supreme! ??? It sounds like you have an us/them mentality- “chosen people”, exclusion. If being Jewish means such a position of being the only correct religion- no wonder everyone else is against your belief system.”
Wis, did you grow up in a part of the country where Jewish people are rare, or something? That’s not at all what the concept of “chosen people” means, at all.
Bigotry relates to intolerance. Valuing your religion doesn’t preclude respecting others. The words leveled against Jews were uncalled for. Accusatory.
Yo wis75 can you please explain why it is so offensive to you that Judaism is passed down? You realize that conversion is allowed, right? If anyone doesn’t have “the right ancestors” they can convert and be welcomed with open arms and will be considered just as Jewish as anyone else.
You’re totally making up this idea that Jews feel they are superior, better, or elite. The reason I need to marry someone Jewish is not because I need someone else who is on my grand supreme level - it’s because I keep kosher, keep shabbat, celebrate Jewish holidays, want to give my kids a Jewish education, and need someone who is going to also run a household that way. Like, if it was important to me to raise my children in a certain way, I’d need to marry someone else who also has those values - same concept with this. On the most basic level, I need a kosher kitchen. I can’t marry someone who is going to be making cheeseburgers in my kitchen. It doesn’t make them worse than me. It just means we’re different in a way that doesn’t make sense to pursue a relationship. If I wanted to travel the world in my 30’s, I’d also need to find someone else who wants to live that same life. Same deal.
“the only correct religion”
This is exactly what Jews do not believe – in contrast to Christians and Muslims. Judaism is for Jews. This is why we don’t proselytize. What other people do may be right for them. It’s none of our business.
That is exactly what the OP does believe: that Judaism is the only correct religion for her grandchildren. Or, at least, that Judaism is the vastly preferable religion for her grandchildren, and any other religion would be inferior.
Somehow, I doubt that your parents are worried that you will choose a non-Jewish spouse. You’re too invested in your culture to want to do that.
If @Rockvillemom’s kids were as heavily invested in Jewish life as you are, I don’t think she would have started this thread.
Well, I think everyone (rightly) thinks that their religion is the right religion…otherwise they’d change to the religion that they think is right. Who’d be Muslim if they though that Hinduism was right? Who’d be Catholic if they thought that Islam was right?
There is nothing wrong with the OP wanting her future grandchildren to be Jewish. That’s a normal desire. She (and the rest of us) have to be willing to accept that our adult children may make other decisions in regards to their children.
I really do not think that inferior/superior plays into @Rockvillemom’s feelings on the subject.
Yes, she would PREFER that her grandchildren be raised as Jews, because she feels that the heritage of the Jewish people is deeply important and that only Jews can preserve it.
I must say, @wis75, I am surprised that you would barge into what has been a long, sensitive, civil, and valuable conversation, declaring that you can’t be bothered to read it, and making extremely hostile statements. It seems unlike you.
CardinalFang, I don’t think RVM is saying that she thinks that Judaism is the only correct religion, I think that she is saying that having grandchildren who don’t share her religion and won’t continue her religious tradition would sadden her and make her feel separated from them. Those are not the same thing by any measure.
As I said earlier, my sister’s kids are Catholic. We attended every religious ceremony and never missed the corresponding party, but we were excluded from certain religious rituals. No one could be a confirmation sponsor from our family, and roles at the weddings were closed to us. We understood the difference in religion and weren’t bothered by it, but it was noticeable and I can see how feeling alone, apart and different with your own grandchildren could be less than wonderful. I’m really surprised that so many people can’t see that. Actually, in some cases I’m not surprised.
Thank you, @zoosermom . Clearly I am not expressing myself as well as I thought.
It’s also important to note that for many Jews, it is more than a religion. It is a cultural identity and heritage. I simply want that connection with my grandchildren - the sharing of customs and traditions. It’s not about the relative superiority or inferiority of any religion - I’ve never thought that for a second. I am not a religious scholar, nor am I a bigot. It’s about my desire for religious and cultual continuity within my family.
“That is exactly what the OP does believe: that Judaism is the only correct religion for her grandchildren.”
I was responding to a post suggesting Jews think Judaism is the only correct religion across the board, and that everyone else is inferior. That’s false. Of course everyone has ideas about what’s best for ourselves and our children. There is no such thing as a family or a human being without a culture, even if it’s an amalgamated culture. We all feel at home with some beliefs and practices and not others. That’s just being human.