Adult children dating - different faiths and races

Parent Cafe
521

“There are Reform congregations, I believe, that allow family members to join (at least to a limited extent) even without converting.”

As I mentioned before in this thread, at the largest Reform temple in my city (800 families) half the congregation are mixed families. Also, since it is Reform, it doesn’t matter which parent is Jewish, the children are Jewish. Non Jews are allowed on the Bima and can read. This temple has been in existence since 1887 and is one of the oldest Reform temples in the US.

Usually in a mixed marriage, regardless of the affiliation of the Jewish parent growing up, they join Reform temples because they welcome mixed marriage couples and their kids into the congregation.

I also know mixed families that join a Reconstructionist congregation.

522

From what I have heard many reform and reconstructionist temples are a lot more loose with members of the congregation, a guy I work with is not Jewish, but his wife is, and they belong to the local temple and he goes to services and such to support his wife (not sure what his beliefs are, poor guy is a Redskins fan lol). From what I know conservative and orthodox temples are a lot more strict, and I remember reading there are some temples and groups that do not allow conversions (generally the ultra orthodox), they will take in those who are Jewish but lapsed or those from conservative or reform congregations. I have a friend of mine at work who sees herself as Jewish, has attended and been a member of a congration on the upper west side for years, but never has formally converted, and both she and they seem happy with it. One of the things I have seen with mixed faith couples, a mistake, is that the issue of faith wasn’t really talked about, and that can lead to problems.

For example, a mixed couple I know (she was raised Jewish, he was I think mainstream protestant) had a flare up because when the kids were visiting his parents, they took their church the first Sunday they had the kids alone, and the wife was really upset, she felt like the grandparents were somehow trying to convert the kids behind her back. It hadn’t been discussed by the couple, and unsaid assumptions caused a big issue (they were able to work through it, the grandparents were not super religious and they apologized to the wife that they hadn’t asked, the wife also realized she may have overreacted, she had had some bad experiences at the college she went to with some of the born again Christian crowd that kept trying to prosletize her, including one of her roommates, and assumed that must be what Christians do, in the end the kids actually enjoyed having both faiths in the family). The biggest problem in many relationships IME are the unsaid assumptions.

523

Collectively speaking, seems that many of us don’t really know enough about other religions. Or how different cultures here value their identities and traditions.

524

Yep, the proselytizing is a sore spot. It happens to Jews enough that it makes us sensitive to the motives of Christians who invite us to religious events. Are they just sharing a custom/holiday they love? Or do they want to convert us? I think that is part of the basis of RVM’s fear of losing her grands.

525

“my big takeaway is that religions pretty much share the same essential message: practise compassion. What would you say is the essential message of the (Orthodox?) Judaism that you grew up with?”

As I understand it, the essential message of Orthodox Judaism is: Live as a Jew. Obey the laws of Israel. That message is only meant for people inside the group.

There are plenty of messages of compassion to be found within the law, but for someone born an Orthodox Jew, growing up into a wonderful, kind Gentile human being is a bad outcome that violates the essential message. It’s understood to be turning your back on your people. You don’t have to believe in God; you just have to obey the law.

526

Right, but to be fair, Hanna, those same people would consider becoming a Reform Jew (who eats bacon, drives on Saturdays, and so forth) to be a bad outcome as well.

527

“It happens to Jews enough that it makes us sensitive to the motives of Christians who invite us to religious events. Are they just sharing a custom/holiday they love? Or do they want to convert us?”

Please. We all can easily tell the difference between the Christian neighbor who invites you over for Christmas because she doesn’t want to see anyone sit at home by themselves, and the Christian neighbor who thinks you’ll die and go to hell if you don’t accept Jesus and it’s her personal mission to tell you that. I think it’s extremely unfair to most normal, everyday Christians, who aren’t spreading fire and brimstone messages, to suggest that if they offer your kid a Cadbury egg on Easter or a candy cane on Christmas that they’re trying to convert you.

When my twins were young, my parents sent them an Easter card. It was as innocuous of a “bunny bringing you chocolate” as you can imagine, as my parents had ZERO intent of “converting” anyone to anything as they never practiced anything other than gifts on December 25 and chocolate bunnies on Easter; my husband overreacted, he and my mother had a huge fight and I ran out of the house crying. Everyone since made their peace, but you have to distinguish between the intent.

528

This article about matrilineality in Judaism is very illuminating:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality_in_Judaism

Which led me to this, about Karaites, a group I’d never heard of before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism

Fascinating.

529

PG, your story proves my point. We are sensitive, rightly or wrongly.

I have mostly lived where Jews are a tiny tiny minority of the population and have learned over the years to discern what the intent is. I do give people the benefit of the doubt and take good wishes as they are given: Merry Christmas doesn’t set me off and being prayed for in Jesus’ name doesn’t either. But sometimes it isn’t clear to me even now. If a Mormon friend gives me a Book of Mormon, what does that mean? I know it means he likes me, but why that gift? Why not a card? Am I supposed to read it?

530

@Lizardly, If a Mormon gave me the Book of Mormon I would regard it as a proselytizing attempt. It’s an essential part of their religion. And I would not appreciate it.

A Buddhist friend of mine allowed her Mormon neighbor to bring a pair of her “sisters” to visit. (I think she thought they were actually going to be her sisters.) They asked if they could pray, and she graciously stated that prayer was always a blessing in a house. Then these two 20-somethings proceeded to try to convert her, their 40-something hostess, to the “right way.” In her own home. She informed them that they should not mistake gracious openness for absence of conviction. She is a much more evolved human being than I am. B-)

531

I’m coming back to this statement, from yesterday, because it really irked me.

As an atheist, I dislike the characterization that I have “decided” there definitely isn’t a god. It’s too strong. I don’t say that I “decide” not to believe something for which there is no evidence. Besides other people’s feeling, experiences and internal mental state, which I have no access to, I have no evidence for the existence of gods, so I say there aren’t any. I don’t need to make a conscious decision not to believe in something supernatural for which there is no evidence. I start out not believing in supernatural things for which there is no evidence, and so do you.

Sorry if I’m emphatic about it, but atheists constantly get accused of needing “faith” not to believe in gods, as if not believing in a god is a religious belief akin to believing in the Christian God, or Yahweh or something. No, no, no. My belief that there is no god is like your belief that there is no invisible ferret living in your underwear drawer: you don’t have a reason to believe in the ferret, so you don’t, no “decision” required, no “faith” required. And I have no reason to believe in god or invisible ferrets, so I don’t believe in either one.

I realize that for religious people, your God is more important to you than a hypothetical ferret, and I respect that. I understand that you have reasons to believe in your God. People have their religious beliefs, and I don’t want to change them. I just want you to understand my lack of religious beliefs. Please understand that to me, nonexistent gods and nonexistent invisible ferrets are equally important and equally plausible. I’m not rejecting your God. I don’t think He exists, so I don’t think there is anything to reject.

532

See how little we know and how.much we base on anecdote or assuming? Not all Christians proselytize. Period. Its some smaller percentage. And you cant always determine the “intent” behind a blessing or a book. Or that they.must have invited you for holiday cookies because they’re celebrating Christ and want your soul.

Not any more than I know why anyone does whatever. I suppose you could ask. Or say, “No, thank you,” to the book.

533

There is a lot of sensitivity among some Jewish people with the intent of Christians and I can understand it, it doesn’t help that somehow in the US we are being told that the fire and brimstone/religious right/fundamentalist Christians somehow represent the faith, in the media and sadly from some politicians it is driven home that this attitude represents Christianity (or worse, that their over the top way of prosletizing represents “evangelism”). There is an irony to this, the largest Christian denomination in the country are the Roman Catholics, and I have experienced few if any Catholics who would do that kind of thing to a Jew or anyone else, yet we keep being told that the fundamentalist “evangelicals” (and note it is in parentheses, I recognize that evangelical is not a synonym for the religious right, despite what the media says) are in fact what Christians in the US are. It doesn’t help that many of the fundamentalist churches, including the Southern Baptists, have as one of their main creeds that the Jews need to be converted to Christianity (the Southern Baptists are about 16 million people) and many Jews are well aware of that.

That said, what I would tell my Jewish friends (and have) that as someone with my own faith beliefs, I find the born agains and the like a royal pain in the butt and offensive, but that that does not represent most Christians, and usually you can tell that type of Christian very easily, they tend to be overt and over the top and that if someone invites them for a Christmas party or gave a kid candy cane (which is not religious at all) or an easter bunny (again, not religious at all) or for an Easter egg hunt, it is part of the tidings of a season, and meant as such (I defy anyone to explain to me how a rabbit or an egg has anything to do with the Easter story of Jesus, as I defy anyone to explain to me how a candy cane has anything to do with baby Jesus). I understand the sensitivity, so I try to spend time explaining that not every Christian is Mike Hucabee or Jerry Falwell. Stereotypes sometimes are based in bitter experience, but they are still stereotypes and misconceptions.

534

CF:#530, right.

Consolation, didn’t you study Ancient Greek?

I thought atheist was “not believing” (and agnostic was “not knowing”), which seems very different to me, too, than choosing not to believe. Or maybe “without belief” or “without knowledge”?

535

Mormons proselytize, that’s what they do. There are other denominations who do, as well, but I know many Mormons and they seem to always be trying to grab new members - perhaps because I’m a Christian and they figure it’s a matter of degrees. If I invited you to my church (which I might), you can assume that I’m not trying to convert you, but that I’m trying to (a) feed you and (b) rope you into some community service thing. My church has a very large community garden where the food is grown, harvested and distributed. In light of the fact that we aren’t farming experts and it’s a lot of labor, we are ALWAYS trying to rope people into helping. We also do a massive clothing drive for the needy and lots of hands are needed – the final workers end up across a spectrum of religions and no religion at all. Volunteers actually bus trip to come and pitch in every year.

I am deeply bothered by the contention that fundamentalists represent the current image of Christianity. I think to the extent that’s true it’s because the media has a vested interest in showcasing the extremes for the purpose of mockery and demonization. There are actually many fundamentalist Christians who don’t boycott military funerals and do a great deal of good for other people. For me, personally, the lack of knowledge on this forum by people I know to be educated, informed, sophisticated people about Christianity in modern America is surprising and sad because as you read through the threads wherever the topic comes up tangentially, many of those people actually believe that they know what they are talking about and act/speak accordingly.

Speaking of fundamentalist religions, my D works in an area of Brooklyn that is mostly populated by Hasidim, and sometimes there are misunderstandings and conflicts that are very hard to resolve.

536

@alh and @Cardinal Fang,

I said nothing about “choosing” not to believe or “rejecting” other people’s gods.

As a person who is more or less an atheist, I consider myself to be what one might call an atheist agnostic. There is no evidence, in my opinion, that a “god” exists. I simply don’t believe it. I don’t “lack” faith, because I don’t need faith, I don’t feel any absence. If other people want to have imaginary friends, that’s their business.

At the same time, I have some inchoate feeling that there is some kind of creative force in the universe that one may or may not wish to call “the divine.” I feel no need to subject this feeling to rational examination and look for evidence. Do I think this is a “deity”? Definitely not. Do I think of it as “supernatural”? No, because if it is anything it is suffused in nature.

Do I think there is an afterlife? I don’t know. If there is, it somehow participates in that creative force. I don’t feel the need to decide one way or the other.

Therefore I think I could be classified as an agnostic atheist, rather than a “pure” atheist. :slight_smile:

Whether or not one thinks there is some kind of god, IMHO what is important is how one behaves towards other people and the natural world. Some people are positive and creative; some are destructive. I think it’s pretty clear who is who.

537

About Christmas…I’m not a thelologian, but…

Reality is that it’s unlikely that Jesus was born on December 25. There would not have been shepherds out with their newborn lambs near Bethlehem in December. It is my understanding that the early Christians did not celebrate Christ’s birthday then.

But when the Holy Roman Empire became Christian the people were mighty reluctant to give up Saturnalia, a major festival which coincides with the winter solstice. Once again, the days start to lengthen. So, the problem was solved by relocating Christmas to that day.

Something somewhat similar happens at Easter. One of the most beautiful liturgies in Catholicism is the Easter Vigil mass. A fire is lit–Christ comes into the world. There’s also a candle and water and…well, if you know what’s “really” going on, it’s kind of hard not to giggle. It’s all give a very, specific Christian meaning…but the actions are those of an ancient Druid fertility rite having to do with spring and a hope that there would be lots of animals born. Again, that rite, which is just a very small part of the opening of the Easter mass, was something the formerly Druid liked and didn’t want to give up, so it got a different meaning.

If Christmas trees are pagan, that’s news to me. Maybe they were initially but they had a very specific Christian meaning. The Church–when there was only one–used to celebrate the feast of Adam and Eve, which took place the day before Christmas. It commemorated Adam’s fall, i.e., original sin. Now this feast was often acted out by players, ie., actors. Of course, they had to have a tree of good and evil in their garden of paradise. The only trees that looked half-decent that time of year were evergreens and so they were used. Those playing the roles of Adam and Eve would take a bite from a fruit–usually an apple saved from the harvest–put into the tree as a prop. Of course, weather that time of year was “iffy” so the evergreen trees were often cut down and taken into a church or other gathering place where the players could perform.

The next day, Christ was born,overcoming original sin, so the trees became associated with Christmas. People would decorate them with an apple and sometimes with cookies, which were meant to represent the host used in the Eucharist, i.e., Christ.

So, while I understand that these symbols have become symbols of Christianity, you could still celebrate the fact that after the winter soltice the days grow longer and if you are either Muslim or Jewish, I think you could use the tree as a symbol of Adam and Eve and the story of creation. I’m not really suggesting that anyone who observes a differerent faith do that. …just explaining what I understand to be the origins of these customs.

538

Consolation: My question was really only about etymology. I seemed to remember you studied Greek. Maybe I am wrong about that. I wasn’t questioning anything at all of what you have posted here. I was wondering whether English definitions of those words are different than the Greek from which they come. It was just interesting to me. I thought you might be able to shed light on it.

539

@alh, yes, I did, but I don’t think that the original straightforward Greek meaning of the words necessarily defines them today.

540

like @b1ggreenca we picked a new religion (Ethical Culture similar to UU, but takes no position on whether God exists. Basically deed above creed.) DH’s father was Jewish, his mother was a Christian Scientist. They were brought up mostly as cultural Christians who lit candles for Hannukah and sometimes did a minimal Seder for Passover. His mother’s family disowned her for marrying a Jew. She waited seven years to get married, but they were adamant. My mother was brought up Unitarian, but was an atheist, my Dad was a C & E Presbyterian. One of my brothers is not religious the other is an extremely devout Episcopalian. We got a little tired of theological discussions at one point and began seeing a lot more of the other brother! They’ve toned it down and since my mother lives with them, we see a lot more of them again. I did like taking kids the the Epis. church when they were small. I considered it more or less a field trip in understanding what other religions are all about and what services are like. When I was young I used to really enjoy attending church or Sunday School with my friends. Didn’t make me catch religion! Both our kids are not religious.

I know I would not be happy if they married some one fundamentalist of any religion. I’m fine with main stream Protestants, Reform Jews, Muslims who don’t make their women cover up etc. I would, of course, behave, but I would not be happy.

As for marrying different races, just from a practical point of view I think the more my cancer prone pales skin gets diluted the better! I really think the best way for us to understand prejudice is to intermarry. I had no idea what it was like to grow up Asian-American until my half-Japanese sister-in-law told us truly horrific stories. My younger son has been with a young woman from Hong Kong for the last two years and we think she’s great. I’d love them to get married they seem so compatible in every way.