A coworker of mine once told me that he could not communicate with his FIL/MIL. Even though there is neither religion nor race problem, they do not have a common language which both sides can rely on to communicate with each other. Strange but true. (When the FIL/MIL visit, they need to live under the same roof but there is no communication possible at all – unless the wife becomes a translator between them.)
@b1ggreenca -I like that approach in that it seems fair and even. It would be quite a mind shift for me - but I appreciate the neutrality of it and establishing your own family tradition.
People seem more creative and innovative with how they approach this topic today. I am more traditional, but working hard at keeping an open mind.
I am the product of a religiously mixed marriage, Jewish/Christian. Perhaps as a result I would be tolerant of my kids marrying someone of any faith. H is the child of Holocaust survivors, however, and is terrified the kids will marry non Jews. I figure one will and one won’t. I dread when the day comes. I hope by then H will have met the future DIL and will love her.
H’s parents did not care if he married a Jew or not. I don’t know why H is such a throw back. He and his folks were completely secular. Just recently H has become concerned about his son’s Jewish identity.
@Lizardly - I totally get it. And he can love the future DIL and still wish she was Jewish. For me - it is at an ancient emotional level. I can have lots of logical, rational and calm thoughts on the subject. And then I think about my grandparents who escaped Europe before the Holocaust, and I lose it. It’s a tug of war between the past and the future. And it’s about the importance of traditions and life cycle events. It’s something that is ingrained in me very deeply and to an extent, I feel I have failed because my sons do not share this belief system. It would be easier if they did. But I respect them and I get that I am going to have to be flexible.
This has been a fascinating discussion, and quite eye-opening, too. As some of you know, I am a white women married to a black man, with a biracial child, but also with 2 older, white, blond, blue-eyed kids with a WASP father. The post in this thread that cut me to the core was from the poster who would not allow her HS student to date a black girl, and the description of her meeting that girl, who was, in reality, just another classmate of her son’s, but who wasn’t good enough for him in Mom’s eyes. It was like reading about my own daughter and what could have happened to her.
Fortunately, though she’s experienced racism in school, she is not in those settings any longer and has friends with like-minded families. She’s only dated a little, and it’s never been a problem when the boy is another race.
My folks and H’s folks were all gone when we met, but H always says his mother just wanted her kids to be happy, and I know my folks were the same. When I dated a Jewish guy in college, he was invited for Christmas dinner and gifts, I was invited to Temple and Passover. Even the older grandmother who’d left Poland in her youth was happy because we were happy. It didn’t work out, but no one threw anyone out, and I’d like to think that any children we had would have been welcomed on either side.
We just celebrated my youngest’s 16th birthday. She had a party and invited everyone who was important to her-the Hispanic in-laws of the in-laws, the Caucasian in-laws, the two bi-racial families, her gay friend, her Ethiopian friend, the two girls from church, and even her siblings’ dad and his wife. The food was an eclectic mix from many cultures, even some vegan fare for one guest. THAT is family-people who love and care about you and not what color you are, what gender you love, what religion you practice. If my kids take away nothing else from the way they were raised, I hope that is the lesson.
I appreciate what you are describing. It really sounds lovely - truly. I’ve never experienced that type of diversity within my family. I think that is the direction we are moving towards as a society and that is a positive outcome. It just represents an extraordinary change in thinking for me, compared to how I was raised.
for me, marrying outside my faith was a “deal-breaker” – wasnt that a topic awhile back?
for my kids; i dont care about race at all, but i do hope they stay within their religion.
Yes, towards a more tolerant society… except for atheists (and often, Muslims). They’re the two that I see most often brought up as “I couldn’t handle it if my kid married X.”
See, for example, this very thread!
Honestly, I had no firm idea about the faiths of many the men I dated. I did have one man tell me in law school, “Wow, never dated someone of your race,” with a suggestive look. I nbevwr spoke to him again–wasn’t interested in being his token. In HI, D was one of the few kids in her preschool class that didn’t have two or more races and was annoyed by it because it made her different.
Where “X” is “a person of the same gender” may be another case where acceptance is nowhere close to 100%. In recent polls, people of typical parent-of-adult-kid-getting-married age are probably only about 50% accepting of LG marriage in general; acceptance of such within own families may lag from general acceptance, as appears to be the case with marriage to people of difference race or marriage to people of different religion.
Well, considering my post was said in the context of a thread about different faiths and races, I assumed it was apparent that that was what I meant- the X being a different race or religion.
As a queer woman who works with queer youth and families, I am well aware of the lack of acceptance. However, this is changing rapidly.
On the other hand, as someone who has been an atheist for nearly a decade, if anything I’ve seen tolerance towards atheists decline.
Oh, and then there’s this: http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/poll-finds-americansrsquo-growing-tolerance-stops-at-atheists/
Hopefully through all the mixing, a more just and accepting world will be created. Having lived elsewhere in the world, however, I think this acceptance is a particularly wonderful American trait. However, Rockville mom, I so know where you are coming from, as given past generations experience, I understand the fear of the loss of Jewish identity and traditions.
However, whoever formulated the inclusion policies for Birthright, did a brilliant thing, bringing kids back into the fold. My in laws met serving in Britain in WWII, Jewish Pharmacist and Russian Orthodox RN. They married, she converted. Some in his family never spoke to the couple again. She was estranged from hers. My ex grew up essentially non religious. No one had been Bar Mitzvah’d for a few generations regardless. I made a few stabs at getting the kids to my Unitarian church, but it never worked well due to divorce mechanics. I tried to celebrate a few traditions, though the ex had no interest.
When my girls heard about Birthright, they signed up and went in college. Not religious, one D was especially enamored of Israel. She went back for a year of volunteering. I have a feeling she’ll maintain a relationship of some sort with the traditions.
My dad married a Korean woman in mid life. His mother, in Scotland would not speak with him for a few years. In time, she learned to love her new dau in law, as we all do. My brother married a Japanese woman. This was very difficult for the Korean faction, due to historical events between those countries. My 3 now have serious relationships with a Chinese mainlander, a Taiwanese, and a mixed race young man from the American South. I anticipate a certain amount of looks of bewilderment/or whatever from other families should we get to the wedding stage. That is fine. I am rather proud of our cultural mix.
I want to comment on the notion, expressed in a few posts, of couples in religiously mixed marriages celebrating the holidays of both religions in their homes (the menorah next to the Christmas tree concept). To me, that approach sends the message that neither religion is truly meaningful to anyone and that the family just likes the trappings of the holidays–and that’s fine, if that’s all that is desired. I just don’t believe that more than one religion can be embraced by a family without seriously diluting both. And Christianity and Judaism are not so similar that they can be smooshed together into some kind of lowest common denominator hybrid.
I also want to say that I am entirely sympathetic to @rockvillemom’s feelings. I was raised in a non-religious home, but with the firm understanding that I was Jewish and was part of the remnant of a people that was nearly wiped off the face of the earth after having survived for thousands of years. As such, I was taught, and believed, that it was incumbent upon me to conduct my life in such a way that I wouldn’t contribute to the further diminution of my people. The fact that Judaism is a unique amalgam of ethnicity and religion with a history that weighs heavily on those of us who call ourselves Jews means that the notion of intermarriage is quite problematic for many of us in ways that go far beyond mere discomfort with a different form of worship.
To me, it’s rather simple. First, it’s impossible to truly respect and appreciate diversity, culture or religion of others without deeply respecting and cherishing your own heritage, culture or faith. Second, the very reason why diversity still exists today is precisely because some people and nations around the world found the strength, courage and faith to preserve their heritage and culture, and pass it to their children in spite of anything… including Holocaust. If this is called bigotry, so be it.
To those who say they want their children to marry someone of the same race/religion because of “shared background/values” - that seems to be a common excuse that I frankly don’t get or maybe don’t buy. Have you thought that maybe if the child chooses to go outside their culture/race/religion, it’s not important to them, and wanting it for them is selfish? As I mentioned, I was born in another country, and I have no interest in marrying someone of that culture. Not only that, I firmly believe our values would not be shared. People grow, evolve, and change. Culture and religion of origin may well not be that important to some people. I just feel it’s an excuse to disapprove of interracial and interreligious dating.
And as someone who has dated (in fact, had a serious relationship) outside my race, I would find people who couldn’t accept that bigoted, whether they were blood relatives or not. It’s not for someone else to want for me to have a similar background with someone I date/marry, when when myself clearly don’t want that or care for that.
P.S. If I did decide I wanted to adopt a child, I would be just fine with one that’s not the same race as me.
Poignant thread. DS#1 just married, within the faith. His sister in law is married to a Taiwanese fellow who is wonderful and they are doing well. DS#2 is dating someone outside the faith. They have been together for a long time… She is darling but I don’t know how religious she is. Her parents are in the middle of a divorce, so given that I dont know how “catholic” they are. If they do decide to get married I suspect it will not be a religious ceremony. DS was bar mitzvah’ed and attended a religious day school, but is not religious and does not follow any of the holidays (older s does). To be honest, it would feel weird to have grandchildren raised in a different faith, if any faith, but I hope they would let us expose grandkids to our religious holidays by joining us for some holiday. Being across country could pose a challenge. time will tell.
@sseamom…I’m sorry my story hurt you, I hesitated before writing it. However I never said the girl was black, nor will I say the race.
There are many reasons why we grow up with prejudices. All of us have them. Some people certain races, some people obese people, some people religion. We are imperfect. I’m not trying to make excuses for how I felt, but I think most of our prejudices towards others comes from the household and environments we were raised in. We can’t escape that. However, we can learn to become different people and have heart lessons of our own. The story I told you was mine.
I am different than my parents in many ways. I’ve tried to raise my kids to be color blind and religion blind. Just as another poster stated, that’s all well and good but it is surprising that we are suddenly faced with our own prejudice that we thought we didn’t have when it comes to marriage and our kids. Our upbringing and environment shapes those thoughts. As I said I ried to raise my kids to be open minded One dates a Muslim, one dates a Jewish girl. I don’t care. One would have dated outside his race. I had not evolved yet to accept that.
I would accept it now, as I will see the person not the race. But it doesn’t come naturally…and I won’t apologize for that…people can’t help those feelings that were in grained in them from early on. BUT…we can see that some of those things are irrational and just plain evil and wrong. For my actions I apologize, but it did change me and how I will handle things in the future. In all honestly, I’m still not as open minded as my children, I may never be. But they will continue to be, and as I said each generation after that more so. I’m happy about that.
I’m so sorry again I did that.
My comments exclude the Jewish situation Rockvillemom describes as having. I believe the reasons are entirely different from the story I gave about the dating. But the point in this discussion is how we handle all these things.
I’d like to thank everyone for remaining calm and rational in this discussion. It could have gotten ugly, and insulting…but it didn’t. We ALL have prejudices.
Sometimes the issue isn’t even religious intermarriage but marriage within the same religion but at radically different levels of observance.
Our extended families comprise a wide spectrum of marriages. My kids sometimes find it amusing to introduce their cousins and see the reactions. I do not know of any cases where initial opposition solidified and remained constant. Our kids saw this as they grew up. In a few cases, there have been two wedding celebrations - one within each tradition.
Frazzled kids are pretty unsettled in their lives right now and reluctant to date, so marriage (if ever) is years off. They have in the past dated others from different races and faiths and did not have a need to hide this from us, or from the other families. I think I would be uncomfortable if they were to date someone who felt a need to hide them (or their ethnic origin) from their family.
We would however be greatly surprised if they were to end up with someone who is very observant in any faith, although they do have friends who are at least moderately observant Jews, Christians, or Muslims.
From my perspective, one final frontier is acceptance of anyone with a genetic "taint."There are plenty of families who have been, or would be horrified at the prospect of their child socializing with, dating, or marrying S or D after finding out that they have a non-verbal autistic brother. This includes people of all races, faiths ,levels of education, and political persuasions.
@MommaJ - your comments on celebrating two religions and two sets of holidays within the home are very thought provoking. It illustrates the difficulty of a mixed religions situation. Choosing to follow one faith alienates one set of grandparents, but on the other hand, celebrating two religions is confusing and contradictory. And this is one of the many reasons why my core belief is that my Jewish sons should marry Jewish girls. And now I feel that I sound like my mother, who hounded me from the time I was 12 about the importance of marrying within my faith. She was ridiculously non-stop on the topic and I don’t want to be like that, which is why the topic has come up a few times, but certainly not a daily drumbeat.