I was raised Catholic, my Dad’s faith. My Mom was raised in the Methodist and Congregational churches. Doesn’t seem like a big deal now but in the early '50’s it was. My parents married in the Congregational church and a year later when they tried to get my oldest sibling baptized in the Catholic church, they were told they were not married. So Mom had to take classes and they “got married” in the Catholic church. (note: they recently celebrated their 62nd anniversary).
Three of us kids married Catholic spouses, although I think that was really only important to one of my siblings. One sibling is now divorced. H and I left the Catholic church years ago and raised our kids in the Episcopal church. My family doesn’t care, his does but they have accepted it. Ironically my parents are no longer practicing Catholics.
My younger sister married a man who is Jewish. No one in my family had any issue with this. His family has always been very warm and welcoming to my sister. They have not raised their children in any faith which has been their choice.
From what I see, most people in my generation (baby boomers) are much more open than my parent’s generation. And younger people even more so.
That said I do get when people who are very strong in their faith prefer that their children marry in their faith and raise the grandchildren that way. But I do not get people who disown, don’t speak to, or cut off their children because of it.
I was raised Catholic. My mother never went to mass because she practiced birth control and felt the worst thing she could be was a hypocrite. My dad was a NYC firefighter and would take us when he was home, other wise we went with a neighbor. He stopped going after one Sunday’s sermon was about how our lives on this planet don’t matter, it is all about the after life.
Older sister is married to a Protestant, they go to his church. Younger sister was married in the Catholic church and my niece was an altar server.
DH was raised Presbyterian. He, like I, is agnostic, as our the kids. I think it’s the science of it, LOL. MIL has taken D-class of 16 to church on occasion but she did not “take to it”. S class of 19 has never gone, his choice. We are Golden Rule kinds of people, but in a small town it’s hard. Son never talks about it and Daughter seems to have found some like minded people or they agree to disagree.
My dad (and mom) are both first generation and he was a bigot until late in life. I would rather have my kids marry someone who treats them well, regardless of all other variables.
Romani, as an atheist yourself you don’t value religion, therefore you cant accept how fundamentally important it is for some of us. I have friends of all faiths. I’m really not friends with atheists in real life, but I certainly know them, and it would be disappointing to me to have a child marry someone who isn’t Christian. I agree celebrating all religions dilutes them both. You simply can’t accept both tenants as true…you either believe Jesus is your Savior, or you don’t. It’s so fundamental to the Christian faith I don’t know how you marry someone you don’t believe will have eternal salvation. I know and accept how common it is, it’s none of my business what others do, but as for me, I hope my children marry within their faith.
My husband and I pray together and have the same basis of commonality that the Bible teaches us.
I totally get that for Jewish posters here that not only is it their faith, but their history of persecution in the world. Especially with so many vocal in the world about not supporting Israels right to exist.
I’m all for accepting everyone for who they are, it doesn’t mean we need to eliminate all religion to some vanilla, non offending quasi religion. It’s the very history of humanity.
I agree that the disowning is horrible. When I was a teen and young adult, my mother in particular constantly threatened to disown me if I married a non-Jew. This caused me a lot of anxiety. When I met my future husband and told my parents I was seriously dating a Jewish guy - they were more thrilled by his being Jewish than anything else. My mother called that moment one of the happiest of her life. It felt very weird and uncomfortable to me. She basically told me that my marrying a Jewish man was the best gift I could ever give her. I always felt that it was all about them and they were more concerned with their views than my happiness.
So, I have tried to move away from such a rigid position. If there is some middle ground that is flexible and open minded, while still trying to preserve our Jewish heritage and identity - that is my goal.
My husband and I are of different faiths. He also came to the relationship with children from a previous marriage. My mother was just thrilled that I was finally getting married-- to a man-- since she was convinced I was lesbian. The priest who married us never asked about raising children in the church since we were both older and Mr Petrichor already had teenaged children. (Surprise!)
We didn’t celebrate both religions’ holidays with the children. It seems to me just too…non-committal. (Mileage varies, I’m sure; that was just my feeling.) Instead, I remained in my religion, and he in his. Occasionally I’d go to Mass with him because I liked the ritual and the theatre (though I probably wouldn’t describe it in those terms to the in-laws). And honestly, for a couple of years we lived in a small town where being public about my beliefs would have been awkward, considering a member of my playgroup had put her house up for sale when (gasp!) Wiccans moved in next door.
We chose to raise the children in my husband’s faith for a couple of reasons: my inlaws would be happy, my husband would be more comfortable (even though he didn’t state a strong preference per se). My own belief is that people come to the path they’re supposed to follow no matter how they’re raised-- so in the meantime, they might as well gain the appropriate cultural references for when they take Art History classes. That didn’t work so well when D scandalised her Sunday school teacher by announcing just before her first communion that she believed in Santa but not God. (As teens, one’s atheist and one’s agnostic. And our high school, as it turns out, doesn’t offer Art History.)
As far as mixed race relationships…my family’s full of them. Eldest step-D’s first boyfriend was AA; my only request was that she let me tell her grandmother. She had told me at the same age “if you date black boys don’t bring 'em home”, so it seemed prudent.
I’ve read a lot of the posts on this thread, but not all. Originally, it seemed that your concern with your Jewish children marrying a non-Jew would make them give up their Jewish identity and that as grandparents, you’d be sort of left out, and you assumed the grandkids would not observe any Jewish customs, etc. But I don’t think it has to be an all or nothing proposition.
My two daughters are engaged. My daughters are Jewish and their fiancees are not Jewish. My kids are not that religious and neither are their intended spouses. Nonetheless, my kids were raised Jewish and identify as such. I believe that each partner will retain his/her identity with their own religious heritage and that customs on both sides will be observed. None of them attend church or synagogue anyway. Even as engaged couples, they observe customs on both sides. Both already live with their prospective spouses. One daughter just moved into a new apartment and they bought a mezuzah. In fact, I saw them last night and bought them some really nice Hanukah candles and both were excited. My other daughter has visited her fiancé’s family for numerous Christmas holidays so far, which is fine by me since we don’t celebrate. I recall when they were dating and one of the first Christmases she spent with his family, his parents asked her to bring some Hanukah things and share her customs with their family, which I thought was very sweet since his parents are religious. In fact, when I met his mom two years ago, she told me she was hoping the kids would marry and they have embraced my daughter fully and told me they adore her. I haven’t discussed with either of my daughters about raising their intended children, but I assume (and am probably right) that they will do a little of each one’s customs. Again, they are not that religious in the first place. One of my brothers is married to a non-Jew (and neither are truly religious), but their kids were brought up with customs from both religions, and I think my grandchildren will be too. I have NO qualms at all about being on the “outside.” Neither of my kids will be giving up their religious identities.
As far as their wedding ceremonies, they will be non-religious in nature.
So, I can’t speak for your kids, but I would not assume that if they marry a non-Jew, that they will no longer observe or identify as Jews and that their children will not be exposed to Jewish heritage or that you will be on the outside as grandparents. None of those things are what I believe will happen with my kids who are on the cusp of getting married.
Sometimes kids forget that parents are actual human beings with feelings, hopes, fears, disappointments. Our feelings are as valid as those of our kids, and our feelings belong to ourselves only. I suspect this thread was about working through feelings in a safer place. However, as with our adult children, our actions are what make us accountable to others. These threads can be very cathartic in a way that personal interaction doesn’t allow. It’s ok to be worried about something and work through the best way to either act on those concerns or to let them go. Seeing parents as separate human beings is part of becoming an adult.
I was born and raised in a small Protestant denomination, which is the closest thing my completely unethnic family gets to a cultural history and it is a very big part of our family life. My D1 is involved in our church on a daily basis and that is an important part of her self identify. Her fiancé is a religious Catholic and his family is a huge, Italian-Catholic family that expects to integrate new members. I think there will be some conflicts there. I wish them well. I would never disown my children, and I plan to be shameless in fussing over future grandchildren. When my oldest niece got married, she married a Catholic man in a Catholic church and his family was very involved in giving readings and altar serving and other roles that Catholics have in a mass. No one from my niece’s family was involved and it did make for exclusion. When their kids are confirmed, the sponsors will be from the husband’s family. Not a huge deal, but definitely a separation. I get where Rockvillemom is coming from. Her feelings are valid and part of expressing them is to figure out how to best handle the situation.
I agree with the practical impossibilities of having both religions. Obviously it works for some families, but I’d argue that it’s generally in cases where the religion is cultural. You can’t have one parent observing shabbat and keeping kosher and the other one not. It just wouldn’t work. You can have a Christmas tree and a menorah, but that isn’t actually the tenets of the faith. It reminds me of on Seinfeld:
I’m an observant Jew and so is my boyfriend of 4 years but he’s a different race (ethnicity?). As the relationship got serious, my parents expressed some gentle concerns-- his extended family might not fully accept you, you have different traditions and customs, you celebrate holidays differently-- but it was coming from a place of guidance and love, not “we disapprove of this and would prefer if you didn’t date him.” They do happen to like him a lot!
One advantage to S1 marrying a non-Jew is that there are no jealousies or issues about them spending Christmas with her family every year. We don’t celebrate it, so they visit us for New Year’s. Since they live across country from both sets of parents, they don’t travel to either of us for Thanksgiving. This year they skyped in for the seder, just for them it was in the middle of the afternoon. There are ways to make it work, although at this point there are no grandchildren to consider.
One of my older daughters will only consider dating within our faith. I’m concerned she is severely limiting her pool of eligibility though I understand why this is important to her. Just wanted to point out it can go in the other direction too. I would be so over the moon happy to have grandchildren someday, no matter their faith or lack of one, or race.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your child marrying someone of their same religion is no guarantee that their children will retain that religion. Nor does a child marrying outside the religion assure that their children won’t embrace your religion.
My husband and I are both Jewish. We feel a strong cultural affinity, but are generally secular. Both our children are atheist and non practicing.
My husband’s brother and my sister both married non-Jews. All of their children are being raised Jewish and have a strong Jewish identity. My sister’s children do have a Christmas celebration with their grandparents and enjoy doing that, but if you ask them, they say they are Jewish.
Rockvillemom, I think you are doing the very best thing by doing what you are doing. You expressed your opinion, but you are not forcing it upon your child. What more can you do? Alienating the in-law to be can only hurt your relationship with your own child and give you less influence and contact with any grandchildren. Honestly though I think society is going to continue to meld here in the U.S. I know more intermarried Jews than Jewish couples. By far. I think this is one of those situations where it is best to worry about what you can control (the loving relationship with your family) and not about what you can’t (their religious choices). You know you’ve done everything you can to foster a Jewish identity in your child so you did your part. So sorry for the pain of it - - I can empathize, but as another poster indicated, I can’t actually truly relate to it as my faith is not strong.
I skipped through a couple pages here, so this might have been said already. @rockvillemom talked about the exclusionistic possibility of grandchildren going to Christian nursery, going on about Jesus, exclusion from holidays, etc. I think that sometimes (actually I’ve heard it said here) that some nonChristians think that Christians are all fundamentalist and rigid in their Christianity. But there are many practicing, progressive Christian families that are not and would be much more attuned to religious differences of one side of the family. My kids would not have been babbling about Jesus at every person they met, and would have been taught from the time they had any conception of religion that there are different ones, they are valid, and grandma’s is just as important. Any religious holiday that is presented as exclusive subverts everything it is supposed to stand for, as far as I am concerned.
Actually, I think I just uncovered my own prejudice–I would be unhappy about my kids marrying fundamentalists, of any faith–Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc–because I don’t like exclusion and certainty of rightness. That being said, neither is going to do that, because they feel the same way.
These posts have been very thought provoking and welcomed. I especially liked #72 mommaJ’s posts and #86 zoosermom’s posts.
I, too, have been feeling much of what rockville mom has been feeling. ^^It’s funny that you should write what you did, shellfell…because just the other day I inquired with my son if his girlfriend would be joining us for Thanksgiving, and he said No, but I will be joining her family for Christmas. I stopped in my tracks because I had never heard him or anyone in our family say that they would be going somewhere for Christmas. It sent shivers up my spine. We’ve always observed Jewish Holidays since that is the religion we grew up with and now that my children are of the dating age, it has been a “jolt”. It is what we have grown up with and has been ingrained in our lives. It’s taking a step back and re-evaluating. I know that there have been many parents ahead of us with these same issues.
The Jewish religion has always been important to my sons. I know that if they decide to marry non-Jewish girls, they would continue celebrating their own religion, either separately or together. It’s also realizing we’re at the point of our kids lives where they have to explore, date, decide, and make a life of their own.
Maybe there really is a level of bigotry about this. I never really thought about it that way before. But it has been ingrained in me as it has with rockville mom and much of that is the learning that took place in and out of the family about our heritage and producing Jewish children to keep the race & religion alive for generations to come.
Side (true) story for a little levity–
DS#2’s gf is not Jewish. One year she was working as a nanny for a family. It was Passover and I called him to chat. I asked DS if he was going to a seder. He said no ( ) but his GF was. What I heard him say was that the father of the family she worked for had cancer so she was going to watch the kids during the seder. I said “oh I am so sorry to hear that. That is so sad”. He replied “no, mom… he doesn’t have cancer… he’s a CANTOR”. Oops. X_X
I try to remain respectful of all thoughts and feelings in this area but I just cannot grasp the fact that your child experiencing a holiday - for instance Christmas - in another person’s home would be so shocking. Opening your eyes to other religions helps human beings to understand and appreciate all cultures and traditions. It’s just one holiday - you won’t have to enter the baptism fountain to get in the front door!
I personally think that it is only when you step outside of your religion and open your eyes and ears to other religions that you can even begin to appreciate or understand the history, culture and VALUE of “believing” - no matter what it is you believe. You don’t have to change your beliefs to become aware of other beliefs.
@rockvillemom it probably only worked for us because neither of us were religious in the first place, so it didn’t bother us to move to a “neutral third party” so to speak, ie the UU community.
People are aware, and anyone can be shocked about changes to family traditions as our kids get older. My D is engaged this year and I was shocked (yes shocked) that she will be joining her fiancé’s family for an early dinner but he will not be joining us for any of the holidays because they aren’t married yet. I am not particularly upset, but I am very, very surprised because it’s something I hadn’t thought about. I always knew there would be a conflict in celebrating Christmas, so that wouldn’t shock me, but I hadn’t thought about Thanksgiving yet. It will work out. Chocchipcookie’s shock is probably more about the unexpected change than a value judgment against Christmas.
I recently attended a bat mitzvah and reflected upon some of these issues as a non-Jew with sustained exposure to mainline Christian denominations.
I was struck by a couple of things - first that in terms of the structure of the service and its basic elements, there was much that was similar to a Christian service. From a liturgical POV, I found it comfortable.
However, from a genealogical view, it felt very different. The idea that Jews were both chosen by God and had been endangered historically was very clear. Also the costs to a full conversion to Judaism are high. Learning Hebrew sufficient to recite the Torah is not a casual commitment.
Regarding the OP’s initial comment, however, consider this. The girl in question is African American, adopted by a lesbian couple, one mom is Jewish and the other is fairly secular. The daughter felt called to Judaism and the commitment to the bat mitzvah came largely by her. The parents did not expect or require it, but obviously were willing to support it. The familial and community pride that was evident at the ceremony was a joy to see. As a non-Jew, I found it beautiful and moving. She did a splendid job, both with her recitation and her commentary on the passages that she read. She was a lovely example of poised, young womanhood.
Marrying in the faith is no guarantee that it will be perpetuated. Marrying outside of it is no guarantee that it won’t.
This has indeed been a thought-provoking thread. I will admit that RVM’s initial comment that it would break her heart if her grandchildren were Christian got my (Christian) back up, but I now better understand where she is coming from.
I don’t find it surprising, RVM, that your S is exploring beyond the bounds of his Jewish faith, This generation of kids has been preached to since pre-school that “Character Counts!” (the phrase our elementary school latched on to), and to look beyond the color of skin, religious identity, sexual orientation, and physical traits to what is inside. If we want our kids to be accepting of other races and those of differing sexual orientation, why wouldn’t that perspective carry into religious heritage as well? Interestingly, my freshman D attends the same uni as your S2, and although she is a practicing Christian, she has already been to several Hillel events and really looks forward to them. I tease her about this, but I have also let her know that I appreciate that she is exploring and learning about other faiths, as that is how we begin to break the cycle of prejudice and intolerance. She has said that she loves the vibe of the Hillel events and feels completely welcome, so obviously there is a culture there that encourages interfaith conversation and friendships.
Garland’s post #92 really hits home for me, which is why I think I was indeed slighlty offended by RVM’s original comment, and am surprised at Chochip’s comment about “shivers” when she heard her S would be going to a Christmas celebration. There is a sense of exclusiveness in those comments that doesn’t jive with my more progressive faith. In the protestant church I grew up in, and in my current church, we have always been encouraged to embrace all our brothers and sisters in faith. We have hosted a Seder in our church so we could experience that Jewish tradition, we have had Muslims come speak to us about their faith. I have attended the Hanukkah celebrations of family friends, as well as bar/bat mitzvahs. I would certainly hope that a Jewish student would be welcomed at a Christian campus gathering in the same way my D has been welcomed at Shabbat. And while ultimately my preference would be for my kids to retain their faith in marriage and pass it along to their children, I am not fearful of their choices as long as they choose a mate that treats them and others well.
) but his GF was. What I heard him say was that the father of the family she worked for had cancer so she was going to watch the kids during the seder. I said “oh I am so sorry to hear that. That is so sad”. He replied “no, mom… he doesn’t have cancer… he’s a CANTOR”. Oops. X_X