Advice for Finance major

Parents Forum
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I have a sophomore who attends a top private school in a medium sized city. I am writing some of his course work here:

He will finish Calc BC, AP Stat next year followed by Differential Equations and Calc III in 12th grade. Eventually will have 10 APs including AP Econ and AP CS and some business electives. He cannot do much about his courses as there are limited choices. Hence the focus is on the ECs. The school does not offer DECA, FBLA or BPA. The debate program is highly skewed. He placed nationally at Model UN, started a program at school of story telling by videos at school which has been very well received and is trying to expand it to the city level. Has made connections with a national organization regarding this to promote it and be a part of it. Also starting a business with his dad which I am not sure will even take off. My question is what other extra curricular can he add? He is eyeing top finance programs.

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That should be more than enough preparation for ordinary undergraduate business finance majors (typically needing only calculus for business majors and some statistics), but the student will also be well prepared for more advanced math and statistics if choosing to aim for quantitative finance, actuarial, or pre-PhD economics directions.

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I realize this is not your question, but your son wants to get all As or close to it - and a 1500+ on the SAT.

Regarding activities -

  1. Start a finance club.
  2. Participate in investment competitions - Wharton has one.
  3. Junior achievement can be a great DECA alternative.
  4. Start a non-profit - Tackle the greatest need you care about.
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I think you need to ensure 4 years of foreign language, social science, English and 3 years of lab sciencefor max options. You don’t need the level of math but it doesn’t hurt.

I think doing clubs / activities he’d enjoy is key. It sounds like the club he’s starting is of interest so that’s good. Maybe get a part time job. There’s no reason to start a business.

Lots of great b schools - even near the top and yep normal kids get in.

Make sure the student is well rounded academically.

But ECs matter less and you need depth, not quantity. And you don’t need to start anything - volunteer at the animal shelter, get a part time job, etc - all good.

You also need a 1500+ SAT - maybe 1400 for near top.

And financial resources / willingness to pay near $100k a year.

Best of luck.

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Thanks. They started the Wharton investment competition at school this year but it didn’t kick off. May be better luck with that next year.

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Indeed, all those course requirements are being taken care off. The reason I focused on the Math aspect is because I understand to be a finance major-the admission officers focus more on the level of Math taken. Yes, ACT preparation is in full swing. Earlier he was focused on SAT but decided to switch. He got an internship at a start up for summer. Maybe that will tell on how much he is able to enjoy that part.

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An internship in HS is pretty incredible. He’s still a kid and lest not forget that. Yep, normal kids get into top schools and this kid doesn’t seem normal.

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Thanks thats’s encouraging to hear. I forgot to add he’s working on research with a business school professor. They are working on a publication and still at the data aggregation phase. Hence, not sure if that paper will be published by the time he applies.

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Thank you. That’s very helpful. I will keep these points in mind.

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Yeah - it’s great and there will be kids like this - and there will also be kids who worked at Mickey Ds - and there’s still no guarantee.

And yet there are great B Schools near the top, like Indiana, that are easier to get into and then many others.

I’m sure the student will be fine but I hope they are doing what they do enjoyability wise vs. I think this will look good wise.

Good luck.

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You know what teaches finance? Working at the local frozen yogurt store. Starting a dog-walking business for people in your neighborhood who got a dog when they were WFH and now have to go into the office four days a week. Volunteering at a homeless shelter which has to balance their intake (the number of people needing a bed) with their cash flow (the reimbursement levels from federal, state, local grants) AND their operating costs (do we hire another custodian or give the current staff overtime hours).

Your kid is in HS. There is no need for him to be trading oil futures or developing a model for acquiring a shopping mall. He can have “regular” HS experiences which will teach him a TON of relevant stuff.

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In my opinion, this question should be directed to your son so that he is encouraged to pursue ECs that are of interest to him. Any type of work experience, whether volunteer or paid, should be helpful to your son’s growth and development. One should gain meaningful business insight from training programs at any fast food franchise type business or while engaging in a public facing volunteer position.

One activity that I do recommend is taking an ACT/SAT prep course and doing practice exams as the top business/finance programs expect high standardized test scores.

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I often think it is useful to step back and go straight to the source. So here, for example, is what Wharton says:

We seek students who will avail themselves of the rich academic, cultural, and social opportunities of the Penn community. Students who flourish at Wharton and Penn possess a history of academic excellence, a healthy degree of motivation, and a well-developed interest and involvement in their community and environment.

While there is no magic formula, we are looking for students who have:

  • An interest in business to fuel positive change to advance the world’s economic and social well-being

  • Demonstrated leadership

Overall this kid seems to be on the right path, but I would suggest there is a sort of high level issue about whether an applicant is truly someone who makes the most of “social opportunities”, who has a genuine “interest and involvement in their community”, who sees business as something which can “fuel positive change to advance the world’s economic and social well-being,” and is a welcome “leader” of others.

Indeed, Wharton is basically communicating they want all those things to be “well-developed”, “demonstrated”, and so on. And I think sometimes, kids who aren’t really passionate about these things, who if truth were told were more interested in things like individual accomplishment, personal financial success, relative social status, and such, sort of try to fake it by doing one or more activities they hope will “check” this box.

And that might work, but I also suspect a lot of times when kids like that don’t get the admissions results they were hoping to get, it is in part because the admissions officers didn’t quite buy it. Indeed, I suspect sometimes what happens is there isn’t a clear vision of that kid they are hoping to seem to be reinforced in things like recommendations.

So how do you maximize your chances of them buying it? Well, I think the uncomfortable truth is you basically having to try to really be that person. Like, spend years developing the sorts of character traits and values they are looking for. Take seriously your social and ethical development. Learn to enjoy helping others around you even when no one seems to be looking. Become the sort of person who is not just “impressive” but actually really liked and valued as a member of their school and local community.

And that won’t guarantee success either. But I think it is worth doing for its own sake. And I also think it happens to give you the best chance of actually coming across like such a person when applying to these programs.

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One of the VERY FEW things people do not agree with on CC is whether you need to have quality business and finance experiences to be admitted to top tier UG business programs. While most of us believe “a kid should be a kid,” some are realizing a trend where colleges are being forced to make difficult choices with who to accept for this major because of its growing popularity.

Your question is a very smart one because while future business professionals do not need differential equations and a business start-up to achieve long-term success, the competition is fierce for top-tier programs and it would be bad advice for me to tell you to ignore that.

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The competition is indeed fierce. And that’s something that everyone on CC agrees about.

The question is whether or not “finance related EC’s” is going to be a factor (important, critical, make-or-break) in admissions to one of these schools/programs, and there is very little evidence that suggests that adcom’s at Wharton (for example) are specifically looking for the “gunner” type of HS kid who is razor focused on finance– as an EC, as an academic interest as a future career. Being focused on math as a core skill and competency is very important. Being focused on a well rounded academic program (foreign language, the three core sciences, history/social studies is very important. Having non-classroom interests and accomplishments- very important. But having those accomplishments focus on business, investments, finance, etc? Debatable. And distinguishing oneself in some other way (the example I wrote about earlier- volunteering at a homeless shelter and gaining “business experience” understanding the cash flow issues, the intake/operataing costs issues, etc.) is going to make a far more compelling application than the stuff the adcom’s see every single day.

Being a strong, exceptional student and also demonstrating a social consciousness or citizenship or awareness of people beyond your HS has not (yet) gone out of fashion, no matter how competitive these programs are. Adcom’s do NOT wish to see themselves as another cog in the “Goldman Sachs Apprenticeship program”, even if that’s what students hope to accomplish by enrolling in their university. They still (anachronistically?) believe they are academic institutions first and foremost, and intellectual curiosity– breadth AND depth, not “I’m going to make a lot of money by the time I’m 30” careerism is still in fashion.

OP’s parent wants advice- my advice is to volunteer, get a regular job, clean out grandma’s garage or help the disabled neighbor shovel snow, help organize a voter registration drive in the HS for the kids turning 18, etc. Gunning for a finance career since middle school won’t get the job done at a top program.

Happy we can disagree on this.

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Of course. I look forward to sharing my findings with you from my own student soon. My son is more like what you describe so I hope you are correct!

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There was backlash after Enron– who exactly are these business programs admitting, and what are they teaching. There was backlash after the financial crisis with the same questions. There will be backlash yet again after some as yet unnamed Black Swan event. But the residual impact of these various “who are we admitting” events is ALWAYS the provost and Dean of Students and sometimes the university president but usually the Dean of the Business School/Department promising to spend more time admitting people with a demonstrated commitment to community building, using capitalism to raise the tide and raise all the boats, etc.

Even the most venal folks in higher ed understand that the public perception of their institution cannot be “we want kids who look like they’re going to make a lot of money and then give us a kickback out of gratitude”.

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Yes, low-single-digit admissions rate programs are obviously a tough nut to crack in general, and I do think some people get sort of trapped into thinking they need to try to do all the same things almost everyone else who is applying is doing, but just more of it.

All the indications are your best bet is actually to somehow distinguish yourself from that crowd. But I think that is a difficult challenge to put to HS kids, or indeed parents of HS kids.

Be different in some really compelling way! How, you ask? If we gave you a formula, then it probably wouldn’t work. You have to just be different.

But I truly think the one big “formulaic” thing a lot of kids are missing is the social/nice aspect of all this. Which again is a real challenge for a lot of the high-achiever types who want these slots. But that’s why it is such a powerful filter for these admissions offices. If you largely just filter out the kids who are not getting recommendations saying how friendly and kind and funny, and well-liked and so on they are, you can quickly get down to a much more manageable applicant pool.

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There’s a whole lot of space between no business related ECs and a ‘gunner.’

Regardless, I can speak directly about three schools that admit directly to business, and it would be a disadvantage in admissions at each to have zero business related ECs. On the flip side one doesn’t need all business-y ECs either, or to be a ‘gunner.’ Note I would consider a paid job a business-y EC.

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We don’t disagree.

Working at a pizza restaurant and hearing the boss complain about the recent increase in franchise fees just as the price of flour went up 20 percent…and helping to strategize on where to cut variable costs…that’s a bangup essay right there….