Although I think blossom makes a very good point, I will say that even GCs at schools that send many kids to Ivies are not necessarily clued in well at all. The OP should consider how generally savvy the GC seems to be.
Agree with Hunt.My niece is applying to colleges now and her mother was quoting things from the guidance counselor that I do not believe are true at all. Things like Harvard caring about your interest so if you want to go you have to apply SCEA. I know for a fact that not only did my kid not do that, he even told his interviewer he didnât apply early because it wasnât his first choice. If Yale wants your daughter theyâll take her. I think itâs usually a slight advantage to be seen early, and I hate the idea of being locked into a second choice, but thatâs me. Iâve always been more of a risk taker. I also heard a lot from another in-law about how she felt her son was not being supported by the GC in favor of more connected kids at her private school.
It all made me realize that our public school GCs werenât so bad after all!
In my experience from a nationally ranked public HS that sends about 50-75 students to Ivies, little Ivies, âpublic Ivies,â and other highly selective schools each year, the GC that holds the relationship with the particular college points the college to the applicants that she thinks are the best fit and would be most successful at that college. Those applicants have very high odds of getting to the committee stage of review. If the GC will not be ârecommendingâ a particular student as one of those, then that student just gets the typical treatment. But I think that certain colleges rely on certain GCs at certain schools to give them a short-cut. Letâs say in a school like Stuyvesant HS, which every year has dozens of applicants to Yaleâall of whom are qualifiedâthe admissions office needs the GC to help them narrow it down.
And Brantly- when a GC at Stuyvesant tells a kid (letâs assume a kid with a 2400 SAT score to keep it simple) to apply early to Duke, JHU, Northwestern, or Cornell) the message being given is the OPPOSITE of opaque. Kid- donât apply to Yale early if you insist on going early. Apply to one of these other fine insitutions where your GC is encouraging you to goâŠ
For what little itâs worth, my kids went to a public magnet (within a larger public school) that had results that were not so far off that, and the GCs at that school were not able to provide advice of that kind at all. You have to be aware of what the specific high school GCs can do.
I donât think Duke and Yale have similar social atmospheres. And, yes, the emphasis on Greek life and spectator sports is part of the difference. IMO, itâs irrelevant whether Greek life at Duke is the same as it is at an Indiana U or U Alabama. Itâs a heck of a lot different from Yale and the OPâs D isnât wrong to think so.
There are kids who want to go to the most selective college they can get into. Others, however, want certain things. (If this young woman likes the residential college system, maybe she should be looking at Rice rather than Duke.)
Iâm not sure I can articulate this well, butâŠThere are kids who can go to a college and be perfectly happy being outside the mainstream of social life. So, a young woman could choose to attend Duke, not rush, never attend a basketball game, get involved in other activities and be perfectly happy.
Another young woman, however, might have no interest in Greek life or basketball, go to a school like Duke, not rush and never attend a basketball game, get involved in other activities and be unhappy because she doesnât feel as if she fits in and feels a âdisconnectâ between herself and the other students.
My offspring attended a NYC public magnet high school. Many kids enrolled in top colleges. Most, but not all, were happy. The kids who were miserable were almost always miserable for social reasons, not academic ones. So, if your Dâs gut tells her she wouldnât be happy at Duke, I donât think she should ED.
Interesting â our daughter is at a great private school - but I have no sense at all that her advisor has so much power. They say they donât. Wonder if this is because it is the west coast rather than the east coast. But they really seem to feel that they have very little power over who is selected. Or that is what they say. They have told a lot of kids that they are qualified or not qualified for certain schools â but not that they can help them or influence the decision.
And appreciate the thoughts from jonri. Greek life can make people feel included or left out.
Academic fit- hard to mess up. Social fit- easy to mess up. Jonri put it very well.
Some kids donât care about both- which is great. Some kids probably care too much which is why there are so many âI hate collegeâ posts here every Labor Day weekend. But know which kind of kid you have!!!
Thereâs nothing from the info shared by OP that indicates that the OPâs daughterâs counselor is not âclued in wellâ. From what I see, he/she is doing the right thing or doing good advising. But advice is advice and is not meant to be mandatory requirements. In the end, itâs the students and families that decide what to do. If OPâs D has indicated that sheâs not ready to risk losing Duke for a chance in Yale, then the counselorâs advice is spot on. Duke is a very selective school. Even the strongest candidates cannot take it for granted, and certainly not in the regular round.
I feel for the OP reading all this. Last year my son applied to 14 schools and Yale and Duke were among his favorites. You say that your D has significant concerns about the social atmosphere at Duke. To me, that is enough to not apply ED. If she gets in, it seems like she will still have concerns, and will probably always wonder âwhat ifâ. If other posters are correct in how connected the GC may be, then can you have an honest conversation with him/her about her chances at Yale? My advice is to do SCEA to Yale, or another favorite and take the risk with RD for Duke. She looks like an excellent candidate and will get into some top schools, even if she ultimately gets a no from Yale. If she were accepted to both, would she consider Duke? FWIW, I love Duke and my son did also, but felt Yale was a better fit. Our advice to him was to use the early round for his best chance at his top choice, and not to try to work the system by applying to ED elsewhere. You can also apply to some EA publics at the same time as SCEA.
Good luck! Itâs a tough call.
blossom, I agree, you can infer some information from the gc but I said the admissions process is opaque. For the large majority of applicants, itâs impossible to predict admittance to yale and no one is given information as to why their application succeeded or didnât succeed. If we were given that information, weâd have a less opaque, more transparent process and we might be in a better pace to predict admittance.
But in fact guidance counselors, especially at private schools where they have the time to pay attention, have lots more information than we do. They see everyoneâs whole application, and they know what that application looks like in the context of the school. They know who else is applying from that school, and can probably guess how the applications will compare with one another. They know who applied in the past from that school, and what the outcomes were â again, based on whole applications, not just bare-bone stats. And, finally, they often develop real relationships with admissions personnel. Not with everyone, and not everywhere, but enough that they can have some sort of insight.
That doesnât make them perfect predictors, but it does make them a whole lot better than we are at it.
Also, the guidance counselors are writing recommendations for schools that use them, so they actually have influence over applicantsâ likelihood of admission (e.g. writing a better recommendation for their top student versus a merely good recommendation for a student who is somewhat less impressive to them).
Just a quick update because you have all been so helpful. Went back to the college counselor today and they said that if she wanted to try and âgame the systemâ she should apply to Duke, but that she has a good shot a Yale and if that is where she wants to go she should take the risk. So that is what she is going to do. They also said that while they have good relationships with the admissions offices, that they often do things that surprise them. At least at her school, they have less power than people here believe.
^^ Thatâs what they say. They donât have control over the results. They present, and mostly they provide what the AOs ask for and the AOs make decisions. Some decisions come out as surprises. Good luck to your daughter!
Please come back and let us know the results in December. Good luck to your daughter.
As a side note, does it seem as if Yale is the big school for EA this year on cc? Seems like a large (and very accomplished) group is applying early there this year.
@jennings99 my guess is that maybe youâre noticing kids talking about applying early to Yale because your child is? If thatâs the case, youâre more likely to notice/remember when people say theyâre applying there and also might be spending more time in the threads pertaining to Yale.
I could be wrong, but I donât think thereâs really an appreciable difference between people applying early to Yale vs other of the most highly selective schools.
@baltimoreguy My son is probably applying early to Dartmouth if he can get his app done on time - legacy there. He tells me that Yale seems to be of great interest to his peers this year, so maybe thatâs why I am noticing it.
Got it @jennings99 My son is applying SCEA to Yale so maybe itâs just wishful thinking on my part that itâs not a trendy school this year. The odds are already long enough as it is!
I will say that in my circles, thereâs a certain lack of enthusiasm surrounding Harvard - just a general feeling that itâs really not a great undergraduate experience. Whereas it seems Yale students love their school.
good luck!! Iâm sure your d is going to be heading to a great school in the fall!