Agree on the spreadsheet.
Our son was offered a half-ride at Grinnell (merit, not needed financial aid). We told him that, while he should be flattered that they liked him so much, we didn’t want the money to enter into his decision-making. I also made sure he knew how fortunate he is that we could say that to him. We didn’t revisit Grinnell, so I can’t comment that much on it, but he did revisit Middlebury and loved it. When he spent more time digging into the Grinnell website, he realized that as between those two, Middlebury was a better choice for him.
I would also dispute the notion that Grinnell and Middlebury are roughly equal in prestige. I think that it depends significantly on geography. I’d imagine that Grinnell is very well known in Chicago and throughout the Midwest. But if you think he might end up living on the East Coast, there’s very little comparison. As my son has gone through the college application, the only people I’ve found here on the East Coast who have ever even heard of Grinnell are other parents with kids looking for more than the usual LAC suspects to apply to. The same is not true of Oberlin, which I would say is quite well known and respected on the East Coast (though definitely assumed that all kids who go there are arty, which isn’t actually necessarily true).
Apologies if I missed this earlier but what is he most interested in studying? What are his favorite extra curricular activities? That is, how does he like to spend his time outside of class? Just wondering if there is an academic upside to Middlebury (env studies; econ; languages?) or if the location is a draw for him- skiing, hiking, mountains etc.
@lr4550, asks a good question. Overall, I would say send your kid to Midd between the choices listed even though it costs more. However, what gives me pause is the fact that you may have to take out student loans to make it work, while it appears you would not have to do so at your other choices. That gives me pause. You have a difficult decision to make because Middlebury is fantastic.
@PurpleTitan WOW, where did they teach you that it was proper to cite speculation in the comments of an article? No where in the actual article you cited does it mention Middlebury. In fact, nowhere does it even mention the speculation about the northeast LAC. it’s only in an anonymous comment. And then, it’s pure speculation about whether it’s Middlebury. I think it is irresponsible to suggest that reliable parties have provided this “data.”
@urbanslaughter: I understand that people don’t like their pet ox to be gored, but let’s examine motivations here: Why would someone post what they did with the specifics that they did . . . unless what was described did happen. And I certainly can understand why they would post anonymously. Can you not?
@soxmom: Prestige, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder, and I think that many folks would find it silly if someone said “I dispute that person A is as beautiful as person B”.
Look, I don’t have a dog in this fight. I’m just laying out what is out there. Everyone can make their own judgements.
Not going to get into discussions of “prestige” which, especially for small LACs is regional and very much in the eye of the beholder. You can get a “huh?” out of any of these if you ask the right audience.
But in terms of caliber of student body? Comparable. Check the stats. Rankings? Variable depending on ranking but all in the same mix. I don’t know that there’s any objective way to measure the education/teaching quality but I’d say they’re likely comparable too. Other things vary. Size, number of majors, endowment, geography, areas of specialization, etc. etc. Check 'em out and see what matters to you.
@MotherNeedsAdvice We just had a month of this exact same debate, and have decided to let our son go to his dream school.
I totally agree that prestige is in the eye of the beholder. But that presupposes that the beholder has actually even HEARD of the school. My point was only that, in general, many more people on the East Coast will have heard of Middlebury – and thus have some view on its prestige, or not – than Grinnell. I absolutely, 100% guarantee you that Middlebury has more name recognition in DC-NY-Boston corridor than Grinnell. I’m not in anyway saying that’s a disqualifier, or even necessarily pertinent, to the decision of which school to attend. But many people (myself included) would think that it’s at least of some relevance, particularly where a kid knows that he or she is very likely to end up wanting to work in one of those cities or surrounding areas.
From a reputation or “prestige” standpoint, its not really debatable. You may, but Middlebury is nationally recognized for being a top LAC. Oberlin is respected most significantly in the conservatory arts realm. Grinnell-it depends on where you are and where you want to settle after college. Public recognition goes from “good school” to “never heard of it”.
@ucbalumnus No, choosing the more expensive choice will not place constraints on our other children’s choices.
I personally might pay extra for my kid to go to a college that is one of the best, but not so much if there were choices that were of similar caliber that would not cause financial strain or high debt… We have 4 kids with our first going off to college next year. She wants to go to University of Michigan. I am not sure we can say no if she gets in, but she would have to agree take over the loans after she graduates (probably up to $60,000 for undergrad). With my daughter’s stats she can probably get a free ride to several other schools, but our upper middle class income keeps us from getting financial aid. So economically for our family it would be a hard choice. Reading these forums I am learning a lot about whether the prestige of the college is worth the debt.
Yes, all you have to do is look at a map to not be surprised that more people in the DC-NY-BOS area will have heard of (also larger, sportier) Middlebury than have heard of middle-of-Iowa Grinnell. (It’s possible you might find the opposite to be true in the Midwest, but I can’t speak to that.) So the question now is how much that detail, along with other factors, matters to the tune of whatever the current estimate is of the cost differential. Some people care, some don’t. One of many factors to consider.
@dowzerw: “Nationally recognized” depends on what circles you’re in.
Amazing at it may seem to you, to some people, Middlebury barely garners a flicker of recognition. And honestly, that goes for almost all LACs out there.
@soxmom: Well, the OP isn’t from the East Coast, but you make a relevant point if the kid wants to end up there.
@5anddone Thank you for sharing your own considerations and your daughter’s and your son-in-law’s perspectives. That is helpful.
@calmom and @dowzerw Thanks for the great suggestions.
@soxmom Thanks for these helpful tips. Those are relevant considerations. In response to your later comments, too, yes, one cannot ignore prestige and all the presumptions of competence, etc. that come with it. Here it is a matter of degrees. What we were wondering, to some extent, was whether the few extra degrees for prestige are worth 100K. In light of other people’s comments, we are primarily zeroing in on fit.
@lr4550 My son is interested in languages. Middlebury is well-known for just that. Good point.
@Sam-I-Am Yes, that gives us pause, too. It is not as bad as it sounds, and it should not be as much as I initially said. We really just have to take out a small loan for the first year because of some extra expenses. We could pay it back before interest accrues on it (before graduation). The payment difference gets easier after this first year. Paying the extra 100K means we could not help him with a masters or professional school degree if he decided to go that route because our next kid will start college during my son’s senior year; of course, if he pursues a doctorate, he should be able to get a fellowship with a stipend for living expenses. He knows that it would mean less help with graduate school.
@porcupine98 I agree that the quality of the education will be the same at each place. They all have their pluses and minuses. Middlebury has better name recognition than Grinnell and perhaps has equal name recognition with Oberlin. Grinnell and Oberlin are far more diverse than Middlebury in terms of race, class, international students, and so on. Grinnell, despite its location in one of the least diverse states, has the most racial and global diversity among its students, is the most diverse in terms of socioeconomic status, which is important to us. Overall, I agree that, among these choices, fit is really the most important factor. I generally believe in trusting one’s gut, but I agree with many people that my son should sit down and make the lists to make sure that the actual weighing of the pros and cons matches up with his gut. Oh, and your’re right. When I was on the West Coast earlier in the week, I got “HUHs?” from people on all the schools. In the end, all reputable graduate schools will recognize each of these schools as excellent; employers will vary, perhaps according to region.
@Leafyseadragon Thanks for sharing. I suspect that is where we will end up. It depends on how those lists turn out.
@3js3ks -
Just say no.
PLUS loans are called “parent” loans for a reason – they are meant to be the parents’ responsibility, not something to be passed on to the student. It is also the parent’s responsibility to guide their child in financial decisions, not to saddles the child with future debt. At age 18, kids simply do not understand the impact that debt will have on their lives. At least payments on federal student loans can be modified if the student’s post-college income falls short of expectations.
Federal student loans are limited in total amount over the course of four years for a reason – they represent an amount that it is reasonable for students to assume. $60K on top of student loans is way too high for undergraduate debt.
If you as a parent are prepared to borrow to enable your child to attend a top choice school - fine. I did, and was happy to do so.
But to borrow with the intent of passing that debt onto your kid in the future? Please think again – it suggests both that you cannot really afford to borrow, and that you are not really being fair to your kid. Yes, there is the short term pleasure the kid derives from being able to attend their dream school, but long-term it may create financial hardship for your child, or even drive a wedge into your relationship with your child because of the resentment created if the debt is unmanageable or if the student can’t or won’t take over payments post-college.
Keep in mind that Middlebury also holds summer language institutes that students from other colleges can attend. See: http://www.middlebury.edu/ls/apply/fees
Obviously there is a cost for that, both in terms of the fees for the program and the lost student income if they would otherwise be employed over the summer – but even factoring all of that in, the cost of the summer intensive is less than the cost differential per year that you cited. (Additionally, the intensive nature of the summer programs may arguably be a more effective approach to gain fluency). Of course, it depends on which language(s) your son wants to study – my point is simply that in this case, it is possible for your son to have both if the language offerings are the primary attraction of Middlebury.
@calmom Agreed. Grinnell’s language offerings are great, too.
Chiming in that if you have the money, you can spend it how you like, but IMHO Middlebury is not $100k better than Grinnell. (Oberlin is kind of a different animal; I would expect most kids who view Middlebury as an ideal to prefer Grinnell, but each kid is different.)
Having visited both Grinnell and Middlebury, I cannot see that Midd is “worth” $100k more, especially involving loans. If it were my family, we would sit down with spreadsheets and research to map out just where there might be sufficient value in Midd over Grinnell. Grinnell is a campus with “down to earth” kids, little self-consciousness, but with a true love of learning. Unless one were a a very serious winter sports person, I’m not sure how Midd could be “worth” the cost difference, especially if it meant we were tapped out for grad school, support as a new grad transitions to workplace etc., which in non-profits and government work, can often mean a period of unpaid interning after grad.