If one’s interested in languages, I’d say the edge goes to Midd though one can remedy that by taking MIdd’s intensive immersive summer language programs*.
Incidentally, Oberlin’s East Asian language programs are at least on par…especially since one of the Chinese language instructors I had there was an instructor at Midd and Dartmouth.
However, the campus culture is going to be very different from Midd so that should be a serious consideration. Will your S be comfortable being around folks who are open, loud, and proud about their political activism…especially of the radical left-leaning variety(Granted it’s has become much less radical since I graduated from Oberlin at the end of the '90s.)
Even so, if being around folks who are open and passionate about their political activism and heatedly debating politics in and out of class isn’t his cup of tea, that is a valid thing to consider.
Keep in mind this requires the commitment of the student to speak no languages other than the language being studied for the ENTIRE summer in AND out of class. Also, due to the intensive nature of the program, it's very unlikely one will be able to hold a part-time summer job even if one can find an opening in the area.
There is only so much language study one student can do. Middlebury does enjoy an excellent and presumably well-deserved reputation for foreign language instruction, but that doesn’t mean that students at Oberlin or Grinnell are somehow getting deficient instruction when studying the same languages.
The OP does not say what language(s) her son is interested in studying, but I’d assume they have already researched and determined that the same languages are offered at Grinnell and Oberlin, as well as equivalent study abroad opportunities. And over the course of 4 years, the cost differential could fund a lot of foreign travel immersive experiences, including the ones offered by Middlebury.
I’d say that the OP’s son need to look beyond reputation (“Middlebury is famous for its language programs”) and focus on specifics related to his chosen language(s) at each college. It may be that Middlebury still seems to be the strongest, but it could be that there are qualities about the other schools that would tend to level things out.
And honestly, if you really want to learn a language, study abroad (preferably somewhere without a lot of Americans or other English-language students also studying abroad) is best.
I don’t think the question is , “Is Midd worth $100k more than Grinnell”. I think the question is first, which school is the best fit, and then, is that a strong or weak preference, and then if that is a strong preference, are you willing to pay for it. It seems like you are willing and able to pay for it, and have budgeted for awhile to make that happen. So now the question really becomes strength of preference. Cheaper is not always the better decision.
I personally would not pay the full-pay-at-private price to study a language considering that you could enroll directly at foreign unis’ language programs (not the American-run ones, which may cost a lot as well and has the disadvantage of putting you with a bunch of Americans) at a fraction of the cost,
One must be careful here as some foreign unis’ foreign language programs for international students don’t provide a comparable level of instruction in terms of intensity/depth even compared with the better/best US university programs.
Even ones associated with topflight universities with a world renowned reputation for instruction in foreign languages can be hit or miss in this respect.
On the flipside, if one doesn’t want the intensity of a summer program at Midd(comparable to study abroad in its immersiveness without having to have a passport) or some of the more intensive foreign language programs because one wants to have some time to enjoy the locale/summer, then some of those less intensive programs would be the ones fit for that purpose,
However, this may end up causing one to fail to get credit for studying in such programs due to lack of adequate preparation for one’s home college’s foreign language placement exam one usually must take to show adequate mastery to advance by their standards.
“My son is deciding between Middlebury, Grinnell, and Oberlin. My son really likes Middlebury, but it would cost $25,000 per year more than the other two schools.”
There have been a number of threads like this on CC. Some parents choose to spend the extra $100,000. Some parents do not. Something has been bugging me about this for a while, and I think that I might have just stumbled upon one of the issues that have been bothering me. Please note that this concern spans multiple such threads, and applies to this one only the same amount that it applies to several others.
This is a case where all of the schools are excellent, and they are quite close in terms of the quality of education that a student can get at any of them. There really is no way to know which one would be “more perfect”, other than we expect them all to be excellent. You son would be more comfortable at one of them, which costs $100,000 more. This is of course a very common theme.
What message are we sending our children if we tell them “it is fine to spend an extra $100,000, even when there is no rational reason to do so, because it is what you want to do”?
I have to wonder if there is some connection between this (not for this one student, but for the totality of all students across all parents), and the fact that our country is $19,000,000,000,000 in debt.
The problem with the “strength of preference” or even “best fit” argument is that neither the OP nor her son know the answer to those questions. If they did, they wouldn’t be posting here – the decision would be made. But OP clearly isn’t altogether comfortable with making that choice (hence the question) – and her son has acknowledged that he could probably find his place at school’s number 2 & 3.
That’s why I suggested that the son do a checklist or spreadsheet articulating objective factors - not because his spreadsheet is determinative, but because as a mental exercise that will force him to focus on facts rather than emotional impressions. Plus it might force the son to start looking at new or different sources of information that may cast his options in a different light.
The problem with “best fit” is that the answer is unknowable – it is based on emotion and imagination – the student or parent feels like the school they imagine would be a great fit for the person they are at the present time. But will the real-world school be a good “fit” for the 21-year-old the student will become?
Even the phrase “dream school” betrays this pitfall: We would all like to attend the school of our dreams, live in our dream house, take a dream vacation, marry the partner of our dreams. But reality bites. The dream-anything is a figment of our imagination, and the reality is that whatever it was we once imagined to be perfect turns out to be flawed. Not necessarily bad, but imperfect and not quite as wonderful as we hoped.
So once again – back to objective facts. If a kid chooses Middlebury over Grinnell because the kid wants to ski … well, no arguing with that. Whatever else happens, there will be ski resorts in Vermont but none in Iowa.
Even a choice based on “facts” is still at its heart emotional. We still tend to rationalize in ways that are influenced by emotions. But I think that if the task is to assign value, then focusing on objective facts can help sort things out.
Only if one makes it a point to mix heavily with the local native-speaking students in and out of class instead of isolating themselves among their fellow compatriots outside of class as I saw too many American students studying abroad tended to do.
One thing a couple of international students from Europe did which was more intensive was to make it a point to live in the local students’ dorm…including putting up with more cramped and crappier dorm food. What was more remarkable was they did this back in the '50s when this practice was even more unheard of.
Both ended up not only gaining marked proficiency in the language much more quickly and thoroughly than their compatriots staying in the international students’ dorm with its bubble, they also gained much more respect from the local students in the dorm including my father.
While Midd’s summer language program isn’t to the extreme as the last option, it does its utmost to reduce the tendency of non-native speakers to avoid practicing the language outside of class as one key component of the summer program is a pledge they must sign and abide by to ONLY SPEAK THE LANGUAGE BEING STUDIED for the duration of the program in and out of class.
Related to the topic, if OP’s son decides to opt for Grinnell or Oberlin, he can still get much of the benefits of Midd by taking their immersive summer language program…though it is very intense and not everyone’s up for adhering to the strict language pledge requirement.
I read something from an economist (The Undercover Economist?) which clarified my thinking on “worth”. Essentially, the argument is that there is no objective thing called worth - it simply reflects what one is willing to pay. This makes sense. I won’t pay $10 for a pint of beer at the grocery store. At the airport, before an overnight flight? Maybe. (Don’t judge me!).
Now, one could ask, as I think the OP is asking, whether most people would think $25k is worthwhile. The answers seem mixed, and likely reflect how much parents value the ability for their child to attend their dream school (for some this is worth a lot, for others, less).
I work in academia, and my suspicion that inside the classroom there is not that much difference between institutions. So then the differences occur outside the classroom, and relate to the student body, local environment, etc. Most likely, your child will find their people wherever they go. So, my inclination would be to go with the cheaper option.
Another way of thinking about this is by placing yourself a year in the future. Which decision do you think you will be happier with 12 months from now? Will you be pleased you are not borrowing money? Or will you be happy you took the plunge for what your child preferred?
The same kind of framing is useful for any expensive outlay: Weddings, home renovations, etc. Not everyone makes the same decision. But when all is said and done, which choices will really resonate and be worth the extra dough, and which are just money down the drain for long-forgotten results. Different strokes.
I’m with DadTwoGirls that we as a country are indulging our children far too often. Hey, its your money to spend as you wish but unless your son could come up with a few solid reasons why Middlebury is worth $100K more, I’d remove it from the choices. Skiing would be one of those reasons, but keep in mind, things change. One of my D’s “wants” on her list of potential schools was skiing close by. She is 30 minutes from a mountain and has only gone once each winter…its not always as easy as it sounds and its another additional expense.
@MotherNeedsAdvice I recently read a book called How College Works, written by two sociologists who did a long term study at Hamilton College. They were looking to identify factors that contributed to student satisfaction that might be applied in different educational settings other that a selective LAC. Here are some main takeaway points:
friendships - there don’t have to be many, but a few solid friendships formed in freshman year make a huge difference for students. If the social falls into place, so will everything else. The authors recommended pre-orientation programs and joining some EC activity that was goal-oriented (sports, music ensembles, etc.) Traditional dorms with long hallways and communal bathrooms were the best spaces for these early friendships to form
mentorship - even a single professor that takes a personal interest in a student will make a meaningful difference with respect to choice of major and simply feeling validated as a young scholar. This could be as simple as remember a student’s name to inviting the class over for dinner.
These elements are likely to be present at any of the three options on your list and your son is likely to look back on his experience as worthwhile and satisfying.
In my daughter’s decision, she realized as she went back for revisits was that the intellectual quality and motivation of her peers was really important. A couple of LACs that were very attractive price-wise fell off the list because she didn’t see enough active engagement in the classes that she visited. These were LACs ranked at 60ish per USNWR. She perceived a meaningful difference in the classroom at the schools that were ranked in the 20-30 range. We were willing to pay more for her to have that intellectual dynamism in the classroom (the difference was about 12K per year and it fell narrowly within the budget we had set). While relative prestige and intellectual quality overlapped in this case, it was the latter that drove the decision.
Among your top three choices, I believe they are more or less peers with respect to the quality of professors and students. Academically, I don’t think there’s a bad choice here. With respect to prestige, historically, Middlebury and Oberlin have had more of a national reputation but I believe Grinnell is not far behind.
So in the end, I believe it boils down to how you define “fit”, what aspects of “fit” are more or less important, and if you and your son think those aspects are worth 100K. Also, digging deeply into the course catalogs helped my D to eliminate one of her top four choices. Best of luck to you and do let us know what your son decides!