<p>Re: JHS’s comment. In our area, for example, underage drinking is very common among students from all social groups – the band kids, the jocks, the “smart” kids, the drama kids, the religious kids, etc. – and from all the high schools, both private and public. Many students who drink are children of parents who are sure that their children do not drink. I do not mean to suggest that I condone this behavior. My point is that, if these kids’ behavior is discovered by their parents, the parents may conclude that this is a radical change in behavior (an assumption that the students are not likely to disspell since it would entail admitting previous infractions), especially since their kids don’t seem like “the type” to drink. What may be new is the parents’ discovery, not the child’s behavior. This might not be applicable in your case, zm. Just an observation for what it’s worth.</p>
<p>tli83, we’re not wedded to that option, just throwing things out there to figure out how to make her know how serious this is. I’m still completely at a loss. I’ve cried so much this week that it feels like someone put out cigarettes in my eye balls.</p>
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<p>Probably some of both, if that makes sense at all.</p>
<p>I’ll tell a story that illustrates zip’s point:</p>
<p>Just before starting at a new school, my kids met a girl who was going to be a senior at that school. She was a knockout in every way – smart, pretty, popular, a top athlete, hardworking. I was especially grateful to her because she took my son, then a lowly 9th grader, under her wing a bit. He was participating (not all that successfully) in her sport, and she made sure that all the upperclassmen on the team knew he was her friend (a gigantic status booster for him), and often gave him rides home after practice, saving him an hour on two busses and a 15-minute walk. There was no particular reason for this, she was just a warm, generous person. She was also a highly-valued employee at a popular shop owned by one of my neighbors.</p>
<p>She went off to a tippy-top LAC, and before classes even started she found herself in the ER with alcohol poisoning. It was awful for her parents, of course. As the word got around, all sorts of adults who knew her peripherally were clucking about how dangerous it was for inexperienced, hardworking kids to get “thrown into the pool” suddenly when they went to college.</p>
<p>I mentioned this to my daughter, who was a class behind her in high school, and who got around a lot. Her response: “The only thing that’s surprising is that something like this didn’t happen every weekend last spring, given how much she was drinking then.”</p>
<p>The point is that this was an absolutely wonderful kid, with everything going for her (and no particular tragedies in her life), and she was engaging in stupid, illegal, risky behavior on a regular basis. I don’t know how much she endangered others, but she sure as heck endangered herself. Yet, that didn’t mean at all that she didn’t have all the good qualities I admired. She WAS smart, warm, generous, hardworking (pretty and talented, too, but that was mostly luck). And, having had her little brush with serious consequences, she resumed her path – not entirely alchohol-free, but not alchohol-poisoned, either – to becoming a smart, warm, generous, hardworking, successful adult.</p>
<p>Of course, not every story has a happy ending, and my heart breaks when I read about kids who don’t wake up in the ER, or who get in a car and do something they can never un-do. I still remember one of my sister’s high school friends, who passed out in a snowbank drunk while walking home two blocks from a friend’s house, and who froze to death. But those sensational, tragic stories are not remotely the norm. The story I started with is. A lot of teenagers take a lot of stupid, stupid risks. Overwhelmingly, nothing truly awful happens. They learn, they grow. And they aren’t sick or in desperate need of intervention. They’re teenagers on the way to becoming good, mature people.</p>
<p>Just a word of caution about using pictures as proof. Photos of underage kids at parties holding “red cups” and bottles of alcohol were presented to school and local law enforcement by a mom who took them from facebook pages this year. They did not hold up as no one had actual “proof” of what was in the cups and bottles. Unfortunately the mom’s kid had to be escorted out of the school and has since been forced to transfer. Sad.</p>
<p>Posts 144 and 145 contained excellent advice. Excellent and I, again, receive it gratefully and with wholehearted consideration. JHS, I do think that my daughter is a generally great person who has lost her way and will find it again. I’m just trying to figure out how to make sure she doesn’t do one of those things that can’t be undone.</p>
<p>These are just some further musings FWIW. </p>
<p>A previous poster suggested starting the conversation with questions. This is a good idea, and I was thinking that some questions putting her in your place might be appropriate? What do you think our role is? What do you expect from us as parents? What are our obligations to your younger sibs? How do you think we felt when you got sick? (Her answer to this one might be very different from what you think) What do you expect us to do? What do you think you need? What do you think caused the change in your behavior? These are just off the top of my head. I’m sure there are better ones. </p>
<p>It appears that your D is not acting rationally, whether the reason is health-related, psychological, or other, so it is doubtful that she will respond (or even be able to respond) in a rational, logical way to discussion that you initiate. She may not even be aware or able to articulate why she is behaving the way she is. It may be anger. It might also be that she is angry with you, however irrational. Parents are supposed to fix things, and you didn’t. So she is acting out in a way which is sure to provoke you. It may also be that she feels she has disappointed you because all her dream plans last year were for naught. Knowing how proud you were of her many accomplishments, she may believe that you are disappointed in her for getting sick. Not being a parent, she might not realize the extent to which your concern for her health overrode everything else. In her mind, it may be that she got sick (her fault) and all her beautiful plans came crashing down around her (she failed, she may feel last year was wasted/you wasted money). Even if none of this is her “fault,” she me feel as if it is. Ask her how she would feel if you/one of her sibs got sick. </p>
<p>I urge you not to do anything drastic like making her leave or cutting off much of her school funding until you’ve had several sessions with the counselor. She/He will have a much more unbiased, professional perspective on what is needed, and D will hopefully be able to work through with the counselor the anger/frustration/disappointment she is now unproductively dealing with. Hopefully, a few good sessions where she has help putting her thoughts/emotions in order and letting off steam where there is no pressure to be a role model or live up to prior parental expectations will bring back the D you know is there.</p>
<p>Obviously, the illegal/dangerous behavior must stop, and you seem to have a strategy for dealing with it. Perhaps the counselor can help there, too, in finding a measured approach that gives her what she needs. She may want greater supervision to help her deal with temptations, but it will be better if she admits that through a counselor than if it is imposed by the parental “police” as “punishment.” Just as you use cc as a sounding board to find your own balanced reaction, perhaps she can do the same with the counselor.</p>
<p>Anyway, I hope you gain something from these random ideas. Good luck to you.</p>
<p>tango, I was struck by your observation that zd does not seem to be acting rationally. Maybe she is acting rationally, in a teen way; i.e., “I feel like doing xyz and all these other kids are doing xyz without getting caught, so I’m going to do it, too, and I won’t get caught either.” I don’t mean to quibble, and of course I don’t know the specifics of this situation, but that kind of tought process (and resulting “stupid” behavior on the part of smart kids) is pretty common among teens.</p>
<p>zyl, well, I meant rational from zoosermom’s perspective and from the point of view that, if anger is the core issue, she may not even be aware of how her emotions are causing the behavior. Of course, it is possible that she’s just going through normal teen rebellion as you describe and being rational in a teen way. However, given all that she’s been through in the last year and her character before this, I was offering my observations as one alternative. Remember also that it is the anniversary of heading off to college last year with all the attendant hopes/dreams/expectations.</p>
<p>yes, excellent points (which I did not intend to disparage!). And I meant “thoughts,” not “toughts” (where is spell check when I need it?). Lots of worthwhile perspectives here.</p>
<p>zip, use firefox not explorer and there is a spell check in the little whote reply box :D</p>
<p>good to know, thanks somemom!</p>
<p>My response seems to be in the minority, but I thought I’d share it so ZM has a range of reactions to look at.</p>
<p>I see nothing unusual about asking an adult child (18+) to move out of the family home, especially if they are breaking some hard and fast house rules. Whether the rules deal with something illegal (underaged drinking, hard drugs, etc) or something the family has decided is immoral (unmarried sex or other lifestyle issues) is not up up for debate per se. Each family needs to know their own limits and how they want to handle them. How swiftly and abruptly or how many “second chances” or how mitigating cirumstances play into the timing of the moving out may require some careful thought - but in the end, sometimes the right decision is to ask the adult child to leave.</p>
<p>My husband and I have a two-track mode of when/if we’d ask an adult child to move out. (This is beyond the basic “you need to be in school fulltime or working fulltime or part-time school plus working” up to some reasonable age of 22 or 23, at which point we’d be very firm it was time to move out.) </p>
<p>The first track is fairly non-negotiable and would be swift and abrupt - illegal drugs would be an immediate boot (24 hour turn around). We would make appropriate measures for counseling or in-patient therapy if we thought there was an addiction issue. We would likely not even give a “second chance”, even if we thought it was a first time offense. It is just a line in the sand we’ve been dead serious about for as long as the kids have been old enough to have talks about this. (Alcohol doesn’t quite hit this first category unless it is paired with issues like driving-while-drunk or lifethreatening/addictive type behaviors with it. Alcohol abuse/lots of binge drinking would fall into the second category below.)</p>
<p>In essense we’d be saying to our son/daughter: "Illegal drugs is non-negotiable in our home. If you do them, then you must move out. We’ll help you pack - start calling and find a place to crash by tomorrow night. You’ll find that society has a fairly non-negotiable stance on illegal drugs… including jail/prison terms. You’ve made a decision that places you outside of our ability to protect you (from authorities as well as physical safety) or willingness to provide for you. I wish you wouldn’t have used illegal drugs as your declaration of adulthood (no matter how impulsive), but this compells us to respond strongly. You’ll find society at large will do the same if you get caught.</p>
<p>The second track would be other lifestyle issues that don’t mesh with our particular family’s values and household lifestyle. This could cover serious issues like alcohol abuse or less serious such as flunking out of college or even a lifestyle that is disruptive (argumentative, coming in at 4am every night, inconsiderate to other members in the household, etc). There would be sit down talks and a period of time to see if real, lasting, measurable behavior changes can be implimented on a very SHORT time frame. If not - then we’d have a time-line for moving out (perhaps one month). Depending on the situation, maybe we’d even supply some financial support (small - like first/last month rent to help them move out) to make the transition work. </p>
<p>The second route is basically saying to our adult child: “Look, you are an adult, making adult decisions. We obviously don’t agree, but you are 18+. However, if you can’t live by a certain set of codes, then it is time for you to live TRULY like an adult - which means paying your own way for food, rent, medical, car/gas/insurance, school, whathaveyou. It has been your choice to want to do these other behaviors and that’s fine - BUT it also means as parents we no longer support you financially or with a roof over your head. This is the real world.” That’s it. No anger or even huge disappointment - rather letting the adult child start living in the world of adult consequences.</p>
<p>So - I can’t tell by ZM’s post if it falls into first or second category - but from what I can tell, it is likely our family would be initiating one of the two routes.</p>
<p>Just another perspective. I think that sometimes the best thing a family can do is ask an adult child to move out of the home. It is scary, there are no guarantees either way - but it is a legitimate parenting decision in 99% of cases. In far too many cases, letting the adult child stay in the home acts to enable the behavior. In the other 1% the adult child may need to be put into therapy BUT they do not need to continue to live at home while going through the counseling. This goes even moreso if there are minor children in the home.</p>
<p>Annika</p>
<p>Annika, I have a similar outlook. Perhaps it’s colored by the fact that my brother was an alcoholic/addict as a teen/young adult. I do not think it is wrong to have certain expectations & to tell our adult children that they must live with the consequences of their choices. I wouldn’t throw them away … I would help them out to an extent … but they would need to begin living as the adult they have chosen to be.</p>
<p>I want you all to know that I’m still reading, considering and appreciating.</p>
<p>Zoosermom - I’ve seen your posts in my (relatively) short time on this forum, and I believe (and you have shown) that you’re a rational person who obviously loves your daughter very much.</p>
<p>I’d like to offer a younger perspective. When I was 16 (which I know is younger than your D and changes things somewhat) I went through a difficult year after leading a rather “charmed” life. My grandmother died, I was involved in an abusive relationship, school, for the first time in my life, actually got hard, and I just sort of spaced out. I was horrible to my parents (particularly my mother) experimented with drugs, alcohol, and sex (though not to an extreme extent), and did a lot of things I regret. I also failed several classes (after being a straight A student in the past) and generally just allowed and actively participated in my charmed life falling apart.</p>
<p>Well as cool and tough as I thought I was, and however much I believed I was doing exactly what was right, I wasn’t. And eventually my parents found out and all of that went directly against the values that my parents strongly believe in and expected me to adhere to.</p>
<p>And the best thing that they did in that situation, as difficult as it was for all involved, was to keep loving me, keep caring for me, and not give up on our relationship. But angry words were exchanged, and I will never, ever forget the feeling of my father telling me to “get out” of our house. That is something you can never take back, and something she’ll never forget.</p>
<p>In the end? Screwing up when I was 16 was the best thing that ever happened to me, and not because my parents made me see the error of my ways. Because they took the time to explore the WHY with me, and because eventually, <em>I</em> realized that I had done wrong, and the consequences were my own. And the greatest thing about it now? I’m not so afraid to fail or fall apart, because I know that I can handle it.</p>
<p>I hope everything works out for you and your D, and I know I don’t need to remind you of this, but remember to let her know how much you love her.</p>
<p>Luckycharmed, thank you for posting. The personal experiences and recollections are priceless to me because this is so new to me. All of the responses are more appreciated than I can tell you.</p>
<p>Just found this thread, Zoosermom. I am so sorry this happened. It is a very difficult time parenting young adults. We have had similar issues. </p>
<p>I’ve yet been able to figure out how I would throw out any of our kids. It has come very close. Close enough that I can see the difficulties in doing this. It is not at all an easy thing to do, and it can have tough ramifications. One of the big problems we have is that there are mood/psychological balances involved here and it is a delicate balance at times. I can tell you that I am seeing a psychiatrist myself so that I have someone who is not emotionally involved listening and advising at times. He is a wise soul and has helped me enormously even when I don’t agree with him. It makes me able to break rules, and bend when I don’t tend to do so. It also helps me get an opinion on when I am helping and when I am enabling. I really suggest that you look for a good match for yourself in this area. Kids just often break your heart, and it is good to have some help on your side. </p>
<p>It is difficult when you have invested so much of your heart and soul to give your children a better life, and they make decisions that bust it all up. I am having to face the fact that my kids are not motivated or interested enough to have the lives that I had wanted for them. They like me giving the life to them, but not enough to work for it themselves.</p>
<p>In many ways, that is why sending them to a college can be a good idea. Often if they are well within the parameters of normalcy, they can make their mistakes, break rules, experiment, without being in our faces. </p>
<p>I’ve made a number of lines in the sand, that I’ve had to reconsider given our circumstances. I don’t have any definite answers, Zoosermom, but many, many hugs your way. You are not alone.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t contact the other parents or the police at this point.
I don’t think anything positive can come from that. It won’t stop the behavior.</p>
<p>If staying with grandmom is an option, make it happen. I don’t understand why some very smart people make very bad decisions. Does not compute in my brain. Hopefully your daughter will come to the conclusion for herself (with counseling from family or professional) that she’s doing something ‘wrong’. I put ‘wrong’ in quotes because it’s a subjective word. My mother always wanted to know why I wasn’t ‘normal’. I’m still trying to figure out what normal is supposed to be and I’ve been trying for 47 years.</p>
<p>It is painful to watch the ones we love make bad choices. </p>
<p>(((Hugs))</p>
<p>ZM-
I am just catching up here and have read the first several pages but have only skimmed the last several posts (your thread and the olympics are both vyying for my attention!!) so I apologize if this has already been said. I would <em>not</em> contact the parents yet, as with the ease of cellphones, IMs, texting and facebook, it will get back to your daughter in a millisecond and ruin your plan to confront her when she returns. Also, if you contact the poice and there is something illegal in which your daughter has been involved, you don’t want her greeted at the airport by cops who then handcuff her when she re-enters the US (it happened to a classmate of my son’s – so I am not making this up or overreacting). You might look into doing an intervention with her when she returns, if you are prepared to push for her to go into a treatment program of some kind. Good luck!</p>