<p>I do not think you are narrow minded, but I think you are taking a narrow view of the situation. This happens all of the time as people look and compare who got into what college just in their school and come to some pretty off conclusions. First of all schools do not stack your apps by highschool, and do not take it into consideration when they are making the decisions. At the very end of the process, adcoms will do a quick perusal of their top feeder schools and see how kids in a particular school fare according to their peers, but they do not do it with every single school. Your app may have been read a month after or before a classmate’s. It was likely a 10 minute read, at most. And though the regional rep is likely to have read it, often in the heat of admission, other readers grab apps and read as well. Sometimes kids get lucky and get an avid runner adcom reading an essay that hits the sweet spot, and if all stats look good, they beat the odds and get in whereas another adcom would give the app an average score and stack it with the hundreds, sometimes thousands of other interchangeable apps. Where URM comes into play, is that those apps are generally read and checked by someone who is comparing comparing those apps to others in the URM pool. They are not assessed against the rest of the apps per se. If you could have made the URM pool, maybe you would have gotten in, but that means that you get the issues associated with being URM, not only in your past but in your future and your future children’s lives. When you look at stats for URMs, the probability of being accused, arrested, harassed, murdered, discriminated against, they are really not heartening at all, and even well educated URMs are not exempt. There are a lot of social issues that most URMs need to deal with as they directly affect their lives and that of their families.</p>
<p>getrich:</p>
<p>It is indeed very hard to know why one is rejected–or even admitted. Merit on its own is a slippery concept. If the college orchestra needs an obe player, it won’t help you if you are the best viola player in your state. But if a decent enough oboe player comes along, s/he may get admitted over you. Sometimes, somebdy gets bumped for reasons that have nothing to do with GPAs, SATs or Affirmative Action. So you may have been bumped by another football/euphonium player, or you may have been bumped by someone who plays hockey and French horn. I know a woman (caucasian) who swears she was admitted to Radcliffe because she was willing to try out for crew. </p>
<p>At any rate, I looked up the percentages of admits into the class of 2008 on the Harvard website according to ethnicity. Here are the figures, for what they’re worth:</p>
<p>caucasian: 60.8.%
Asian-Americans: 19.9%
All URMS 18.8% (African-Americans, Native Americans, Hispanics, Puerto-Ricans, Mexians)<br>
The proportion of international students was nearly equal to that of African-Americans, over 8%.</p>
<p>You may be interested in this profile of Sara Sedgwick. I read elsewhere that she was self-conscious about having been admitted despire her score of 1300 on the SATs </p>
<p><a href=“http://gocrimson.collegesports.com/sports/w-soccer/mtt/sedgwick_sara00.html[/url]”>http://gocrimson.collegesports.com/sports/w-soccer/mtt/sedgwick_sara00.html</a></p>
<p>What jamimom is telling you is that you did NOT loose your spot to a URM you lost it to someone of your own race because the slots for URMs are essentially set aside, the percentages to take predetermined and the pool of URM candidates are only competing against the rest of the pool of URMs.</p>
<p>Now of course everybody in America knows that is true and everybody in America also knows that if put in those terms the courts would never have OKed AA. So what happened? A procession of Deans, Presidents and adcoms from the most distinguished universities in America proceeded to march into court and lie right through their teeth. The judges winked, the distinguished lawyers for the universities racked in large fees, and all the Deans at the University of Michigan marched off to their new jobs as Presidents of Ivy League colleges - the heroes of the hour.</p>
<p>The amazing thing about this is that the proponent of AA completely and overnight reversed the arguements they had been using for years and adopted the new “We need diversity not because we want to right the wrongs of the world but because we cannot educate ORMs and Asians without it.” without batting an eyelash. Reminds me of the guy in the Netscape add. And we wonder why the youth of America are more cynical than ever.</p>
<p>I do not think that was the argument given to the Supreme Court. And it was not an overnight reversal of the arguments. It has been a shift. When AA started, it was to basically stop discrimination which was occuring on a rampant basis. URM meant OUT unless the candidate had a powerful inside sponsor. But that has evolved over time but not to the statement you are making. Patuxent, your viewpoint is certainly valid in many respects, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but when you make blatantly untrue statements, it really weakens the cause. I don’t agree with you, but I am the first to say, that it has come down to an issue that is a problem. I happen to believe that the benefits override the problem; you do not. But there are plenty of good aruguments supporting your stance. I, for one, would not like the situation of the top schools in the country having only a paltry representation of URMs. You would not mind. The schools, however, do mind, and the courts agree. Maybe in 20 years there will be a change in the situation.</p>
<p>So far I am finding the diversity argument rather lacking. First of all, you are assuming diversity simply based on ethnicity. I thought we were trying to get away from perpetuating racial stereotypes?</p>
<p>Secondly, even if the diversity argument holds true, it seems like this racket is made to benefit whites and Asians more than URM’s.</p>
<p>Thirdly, I still fail to see how the perpetuation of racial stereotypes and lower graduation rates benefit URMs. So far the affirmative action debate as centered on admission to highly selective schools. Most URMs who get into these schools, though they have subpar scores, still have 1300+ SAT scores and would get into college regardless of whether they were accepted into Harvard or Stanford. However, now they have to compete with a better quality student body which inevitably leads to lower grades, lower graduation rates, and the perpetuation of the stereotype that URMs can’t compete on the same level as Asians and whites academically.</p>
<p>What “blatantly untrue statements” did I make? The lawyers for Michigan changed the argument for AA that proponents had been using in court for years because they knew it would not withstand judicial scrutiny in the case. The justices might sympathize with the school but the old argument wouldn’t fly any more. There was no history of Michigan discriminating. It was not some seg academy.</p>
<p>jamimom I sympathize with your argument and your point of view but I know in my heart it is wrong just like I sympathize with a cop beating a confession out of a pedophile in order to find the remains for the family. But the state, the government, and society cannot put its imprimatur on actions that creaqte two classes of citizens no matter how well intentioned. You cannot go just partway down that road anymore than you can get just a little bit pregnant.</p>
<p>I don’t think any “sympathy” or agreement is needed with the argument. As I said earlier, you do bring up some excellent points and go right to the crux of the matter unlike some who are just personally flamed. They are valid points. There is a disagreement on the value of what is being done, not so much that you disagree with me or feel I am wrong, but you feel the colleges, the supreme court, the whole ball of wax is wrong.</p>
<p>Jamimom notes, "It has been a shift. When AA started, it was to basically stop discrimination which was occuring on a rampant basis. URM meant OUT unless the candidate had a powerful inside sponsor. But that has evolved over time but not to the statement you are making. "</p>
<p>Yes, but do you know why the argument shifited? They were losing in courts. This way, they can argue for diversity and not plain outright discrimination to “fix past wrongs.” It’s the same concept just simply repackaged differently so that courts don’t shut off the program.</p>
<p>It’s interesting following this discussion on CC and reading these items in today’s papers since education and housing are so closely linked in this country:</p>
<p>"Study: Hub race woes serious
80 percent of African-Americans and roughly half of Hispanics polled said discrimination can harm careers and make them feel unwelcome. "</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/04/21/hub_race_woes_serious_study_finds/[/url]”>http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/04/21/hub_race_woes_serious_study_finds/</a></p>
<p>“Restrictive Covenants Stubbornly Stay on the Books”
By MOTOKO RICH
Published: April 21, 2005
“Thousands of racist deed restrictions survive in communities across the country. Now, a handful of critics say it is time to wipe the covenants off the books.”
<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/21/garden/21turf.html&OP=2d8e7b03/Q256oAQ25Q5EQ24LpPQ24Q24(5Q255ggJQ25g9Q255lQ25qQ60PQ5EoFQ255l(Q5DPnZQ5C(Wv%5B/url%5D”>http://www.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/21/garden/21turf.html&OP=2d8e7b03/Q256oAQ25Q5EQ24LpPQ24Q24(5Q255ggJQ25g9Q255lQ25qQ60PQ5EoFQ255l(Q5DPnZQ5C(Wv</a></p>
<p>Marite,</p>
<p>Hypotheticaly speaking:</p>
<p>I, a second-generation caucasian of german descent, live in Princeton and go to a very elite public school. Both my parents are lawyers. My neighbours, living in a house as big as ours, furnished as well as ours, driving cars as big as ours, both parents being doctors, have a child who is my class-mate at the same elite school. </p>
<p>I have excellent stats, like 1580/800/800/800/3.9/5th out of 200/excellent awards and ECs. The neighbour’s child, my class-mate has 1350/700/700/700/3.5/30th out of 200/mediocre ECs and no awards. I fail to get into HYPMS, while neighbour’s child gets into HPS. The neighbours are Afro-Americans.</p>
<p>The critics are asking, ‘is this fair’ ?</p>
<p>Jamimom says ‘not fair, but in the interest of promoting diversity, it is alright’. </p>
<p>Others say ‘just not fair in any way.’</p>
<p>What do you say ? And what would be your justification for your answer ? </p>
<p>On my part, I would still say ‘fair’. But would like to hear you first.</p>
<p>Sugee:</p>
<p>I would want to know whether the case is hypothetical or a real one. The hypothetical case seems to me loaded in such a way as to make the selection of an African-American seem totally invidious. My own experience with some African-American schoolmates of my S is as follows:</p>
<p>parents have between them 5 degrees from Harvard and Yale. They live in comfortable middle class circumstances. C#1 graduated from school at 16, NM Finalist, top ECs (music, theater, internship in a nationally known dance troup). Will be going to Yale.
C#2 is a 15 year old junior; is taking Linear Algebra and is in the school highly regarded Mock Trial team, has taken music lessons for many years. Has made noises about interest in Harvard.
Another set of siblings, this time caucasian:
C#1 is at Harvard; c#2 is choosing between MIT, Harvard and Yale. Both have very similar profiles to the African-American siblings.
In other words, African-American children whose parents have achieved their middle class status through education (as opposed to becoming sports millionaires, for example) are just as likely as caucasian students with similar SES background to have great ECs rather than none or mediocre ones. </p>
<p>As for the 1580 vs. 1350 SAT scores, I refer you to the article about Sara Sedgwick. She seems to be doing fine academically and doing very well in soccer. In other words, in admitting students with scores in the 1300s, Harvard is banking on the fact that they can do well and that they also have something to bring to the school community.</p>
<p>I agree that there are other types of diversity than skin color. Try discussing agricultural practices in a roomful of Manhattanites who’ve never seen a live cow. But given this country’s past–and even present–we cannot say that skin color is immaterial. Here is the beginning of another Crimson article:</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I have not answered your question directly, I know. But I’d like to know more about this “hypothetical case.” One African-American friend of my S, whom my S considers “very smart” (not something he says lightly) was deferred from H. He had plenty of great ECs, too.</p>
<p>Marite,</p>
<p>No, the above is purely hypothetical and a case constructed by me from some of the posts here. “All else being equal economically, some URMs with decidedly lower stats are being admitted purely for their birth into a certain race/ethnicity” is the main contention I think. </p>
<p>An afro-american kid from my S’s school with lower stats is going to Yale, and no, not as an athletic recruit. He is handi-capped, varsity track, and has been working 40 hous year-round for the last 3 years to add to family income. That case clearly stands heads and shoulders above al the rest when it comes to obstacles overcome. So clearly that is not a case anyone would object to here or anywhere else. (Or would they ? An Asian might say that he/she worked in their parents’ restaurant 60 hours since they were 10, but got no recognition for it.)</p>
<p>I personally dont know of any case such as the above hypothesis of mine, but I thought that is the kind of cases the main objection seems to be about, at least in this thread.</p>
<p>Sugee:</p>
<p>Thank you. I have to say that my sample is by no means scientific. It is entirely based on the students my S hobnobs with, and they are a varied lot both academically, ethnically, and socio-economically. They don’t discuss their stats or even their college plans much.
Personally, I have never made a cult of “stats” so I don’t know how to interpret statements about kids with lower stats getting in over kids with higher stats. As Robyrm could tell you, I am a devotee of good enough rather than of “better” or “best”. If a student has good enough preparation, I see nothing wrong in colleges wanting to admit him or her in order to serve their goals, be they diversity, potential donations, athletic performance, or artistic contribution.
Universities do care for diversity other than the purely ethnic kind. Someone from Wyoming has a much better chance of being admitted to HYP, all other things being equal, than someone from CT. Someone who can talk about milking cows may even have an edge over someone who has landed an internship in a university lab thanks to dad the professor. Some colleges do still give an edge to male applicants in order to achieve a better gender balance while others give an edge to female applicants for exactly the same reason. They think that a diverse student body benefits everyone.</p>
<p>IF I were an adcom, I would want to admit both the African-American student who has worked 40 hrs. a week to support his family and the Asian-American student who has worked 40 hrs (is 60hrs possible?). The problem often lies with the families who tell their kids to devote all their waking hours to studying because that’s the way to get ahead in their former society. And yet, if we look at the admission statistics at Harvard, the proportion of Asian American admitted is higher than all URMS put together. And, if I remember correctly, the graduation rates are indistinguishable.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>From the the JBHE</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.jbhe.com/features/45_student_grad_rates.html[/url]”>http://www.jbhe.com/features/45_student_grad_rates.html</a></p>
<p>Academically selective institutions are almost always strongly committed to affirmative action in admissions, yet at the same time they tend to deliver a high black student graduation rate. Obviously, this undercuts the assertion made by many conservatives that black students admitted to our most prestigious colleges and universities under race-conscious admissions programs are incapable of competing with their white peers and should instead seek admissions at less academically rigorous schools. </p>
<p>Nearly 19 out of every 20 black students who enter the highly competitive academic environment of Harvard, Princeton, Haverford, and Amherst go on to earn their diplomas. Other academically demanding colleges do very well, although not as well as these four. </p>
<p>Sixteen other highly competitive colleges and universities turn in black student graduation rates of 85 percent or more. They are Wellesley College, Williams College, Brown University, Davidson College, Colgate University, Duke University, Northwestern University, Swarthmore College, Wesleyan University, Yale University, Georgetown University, Stanford University, Washington University, Dartmouth College, Columbia University, and the University of Virginia. </p>
<p>Colleges & Universities With the Nations Highest Black Students </p>
<p>Graduation Rates 2004</p>
<p>Amherst College 95%
Harvard 93%
Princeton 93%
Haverford 92%
Wellesley 91%
Brown 89%
Wash U. 89%
Colgate 88%
Northwestern88%
Stanford 88%
Williams 88%
Yale 88%
Davidson 87%
Duke 87
Swarthmore 87%
Wesleyan 87%
UVA 86%
Columbia 85%
Dartmouth 85%</p>
<p>At the Ivy League schools of Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, and Brown, the black graduation rates are relatively high, and in all instances they are seven percentage points or less below the graduation rate for white students. At Yale, Penn, Dartmouth and Cornell, there is at least an 8 percentage point racial gap in graduation rates.</p>
<p>Far more disturbing is the poor black student graduation rate at the academically selective University of Michigan. This is a huge state university of 40,000 students. And its performance is a national bellwether. Only 64 percent of entering students at the University of Michigan go on to graduate. Each year there are 350 or more black freshmen who enroll at the university. </p>
<p>As for the nation’s other high-ranked institutions, only five other schools have a black student graduation rate below 70 percent. They are Bates College, CalTech, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the University of Southern California, and the University of California at Berkeley. Several other highly ranked colleges and universities Bryn Mawr College, Hamilton College, Trinity College, and the University of California at Los Angeles have raised their black student graduation rates to over 70 percent. Last year these schools had a black graduation rate below 70 percent.</p>
<p>Many academics and administrators will be surprised to hear that there are a few selective colleges in the United States that report a higher graduation rate for blacks than for whites. Five of the nation’s highest-ranked colleges and universities actually have a higher graduation rate for black students than for white students. According to the latest statistics from Mount Holyoke College, Pomona College, Washington University, Wellesley College, and Macalester College, a black student on these campuses is more likely to complete the four-year course of study and receive a diploma than is a white student. JBHE has not been able to identify the reason for this anomaly at these five institutions, which is markedly inconsistent with nationwide statistics.</p>
<p>Marite,</p>
<p>Thank you. Yes. I completely understand where you are coming from. Apart from legacy, athletics and AA, there are so many, many other factors taken into consideration as hooks - geography, multi-lingualism, certain other unique experiences be it voluntary work or travels or whatever. Of course also needing that oboe or cello player, the pitcher or a hitter. </p>
<p>I fully agree that Asians (including Indians) are well-represented in elite colleges. As Mini said elsewhere, most of us who have come to the US have not been socially ill-treated. Politically perhaps, but no social discrimination. I think we come with undamaged self-esteem in that sense. Also first-generation immigrants really do not concern with discrimination etc. We know we are new people here, and that it is our responsibility to make it here with minimum fuss. If there is any real discrimination, the future generations will certianly take it up. Therefore I think it is not fair to tell Afro and native Americans ‘look at the asians’. </p>
<p>Given that AA percentage is really not that high in the US, I am a little taken aback by the passionate debates. In India, AA has become completely politicised, it has even become a vote-catcher - particluar castes that have no history of exploitation are exhorted to vote enmasse for a certain party with the promise of including them in ‘backward’, AA eligible lists. Anytime there is a discussion on caste-eradication the debate will always degenerate into AA. The anti-AA say, ‘you say forget caste, but you put it on the birth-certificates, college apps and job apps, so how can anyone forget it’. The pro-AA say ‘caste will not appear on birth-certificates, the day they stop appearing in matrimonial ads’ ! </p>
<p>My take on AA still is, please dont throw the baby out with the bath-water.</p>
<p>(Sorry to double post, but the Excel spreadsheet did not format correctly in my first posting to this thread and still seems to be a problem in this second attempt. The three paragraphs starting with “Applicants” should be the column headers in Excel… The data elements below the column headers corresponds to the headers. </p>
<p>The following data are from The Detroit Free Press (May 28, 2004). The University of Michigans Admissions Office provided admissions data for the years 2003-2004. The accompanying chart provided data for the number of applications by year, race or ethnicity, acceptance and admitted who paid a deposit. I left off 2003 only because there is no easy way to transfer Excel files into this posting. </p>
<p>I transferred the chart information into Excel and added additional columns and subtotals to look at the data in different ways. I am not associated with the University and am solely responsible for any errors.</p>
<p>As the data shows, I combined white and Asian applicants together. Asian and white students are frequently aggregated in SAT reports since their scores are comparable. If you want to separate these two groups, you can certainly do so </p>
<p>Applicants 2004 Applications 2004 % of Total 2004 Admitted
White/Caucasian 11,606 54.59% 7,599
Asian 3,072 14.45% 1,847
Subtotal/Average 14,678 69.04% 9,446
African-American 1,391 6.54% 798
Hispanic/Latino 826 3.89% 587
Native American 140 0.66% 94
Subtotal/Average 2,357 11.09% 1,479
Other/Unknown 2,333 10.97% 1,434
International 1,893 8.90% 913
Subtotal/Average 4,226 19.88% 2,347<br>
Total/Average 21,261 100% 13,272</p>
<p>Applicants 2004 Not Admitted 2004 Admission Rate 2004 % of Total
White/Caucasian 4,007 65.47% 57.26%
Asian 1,225 60.12% 13.92%
Subtotal/Average 5,232 64.35% 71.17%
African-American 593 57.37% 6.01%
Hispanic/Latino 239 71.07% 4.42%
Native American 46 67.14% 0.71%
Subtotal/Average 878 62.75% 11.14%
Other/Unknown 899 61.47% 8.31%
International 980 48.23% 6.05%
Subtotal/Average 1,879 55.54% 14.36%
Total/Average 7,989 62.42% 100.00%</p>
<p>Applicants 2004 Freshman Class 2004 % of Actual Freshman Population
White/Caucasian 4,053 57.26%
Asian/Pacific Islander 759 13.92%
Subtotal/Average 4,812 71.17%
African-American/Black 394 6.01%
Hispanic/Latino 288 4.42%
Native American/Alaskan 65 0.71%
Subtotal/Average 747 11.14%
Other/Unknown 661 8.31%
International 351 6.05%
Subtotal/Average 1,012 14.36%
Total/Average 6,571 100%</p>
<p>In 2004, 21,261 students applied to the UM. Of that number, 11,606 were white and 2,357 were URMs. Admitted white students 7,599
Admitted URMs: 1,479
Not admitted white students: 4,007
Not admitted URMs: 878</p>
<p>A common theme in these threads is that a worthy white student was denied admission to a prestigious school because of AA. In 2004, 1,479 URMs were admitted to the UM. It would be fair to say that some of those URMs had the grades and background to be admitted without resort to any kind of AA program. So the actual number of students that were admitted because of an AA program is some number less than 1,479. We have no way of knowing how many. What we do know is that 7,599 white students were admitted without the benefit of an AA program. </p>
<p>To white students who were denied admission despite great stats, I ask you the following questions:</p>
<p>Is it likely that all 7,599 white students who were admitted in 2004 had better stats than you? </p>
<p>If not, isnt it more likely that a white student with lower stats than yours has your place? </p>
<p>Since AA programs try to promote diversity by bringing URMs into the university despite spotty academic stats, it is easy to claim that your admission denial was a product of that process. Even so, the percentage and the actual number of URMs admitted are much lower than white enrollment. What is left unexamined is that white enrollment is still much higher than URMs and that the group that you should focus on is other white students with lesser stats than yours who were admitted. </p>
<p>Note: some responders focus on the fact that not all URMs actually show up after their admission. The claim is that even more qualified white students are left out in the cold.</p>
<p>For 2004, 1,479 URMs were admitted. Only 747 showed up. That means that 732 spots that could have gone to worthy white students were taken out of the pot.</p>
<p>For the record, out of 7,599 white admissions, only 4,053 showed up. The no-shows: 3,546. So who bears the bigger burden?</p>
<p>Today’s WSJ article (see: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=55542[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=55542</a>) suggests why AA is needed. Or perhaps admission points could be subtracted on some scale for students who obtain paid outside help in the form of admission counselors, for test prep courses, for summer or other internships provided by family connections, for parents driving students to and from activities, for summer educational programs, for being in the dominate culture and never having to feel on the outside, etc. After all those deductions, perhaps the playing field will be level enough.</p>
<p>Excellent point, idad.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>MAybe we should stop providing tour busses to uneducated inner city URMs to come to Umich and fill out an application (so we can accept them on the spot). You’d think the fact that we’re in the top handful of black dropout rates for 2500+ 4 year institutions would clue some people in, but…</p>
<p>I would have expected less bleeding heart liberalism from the parents forum. I mean I expect this sort of thing (march against Israel, protest against coca-cola pollution etc) from college kids.</p>
<p>So you’d rather that these people get NO college eduacational opportunities at all?</p>