<p>What good is going to college if you’re just going to drop out? It’s just a waste of money. Plus, it augments the perception that URMs are underachievers, which is not true. It’s only that they are placed in schools with superior competition.</p>
<p>If you place 1300 SAT Asians in schools with 1550 avg. SAT scores, they’re going to have lower grades as well. That’s just a fact.</p>
<p>Most of these people will still go to college. It’s not Harvard or bust lol</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>If “college experience” means take these absolutely destitute kids, buss them down to Michigan, sign them up, rack up 10k in debt, and fail them out than yes, I’d rather see that.</p>
<p>What if 10, maybe 20 percent of them are successful and graduate and become leaders in the black community, and examples for the next generation? What if 50% of the dropouts at least use some of the skills they gained to better their futures, and later implore their children in the value of education?</p>
<p>I know these numbers have no foundation, but somewhere we have to make a difference.</p>
<p>How about instead of putting poorly prepared URMs in U Michigan Anne Arbor the state flagship with the best students in the state and the country you put these kids in U Michigan Flynt where they can compete with morons like Michael Moore. There a kid not so well prepared can get the kind of academic nurturing he needs in an environment less academically competitive. He can succeed there and possibly even prosper. Heck we can’t get him into Law school or graduate school unless we can get him out of undergraduate school.</p>
<p>Any 17 year old immigrant who whines and whinges about ONLY having UM and UVA should be paddled if not put back on the boat, LOL. </p>
<p>He may be racist, but Thom has managed to adopt the American culture of entitlement. A little too well, IMHO!</p>
<p>Forget the huge debate on AA, this kid is looking for special privileges beyond the beyond. At the same time, he is tearing down African American and hispanic language skills. </p>
<p>Someone should point out that Thom’s English writing skills are substandard.</p>
<p>Thom, you’ve got the entitlement bit of American culture, but not the tolerant bit. Coming from Chinese society, Chinese immigrants ought to make an attempt to understand the culture of American tolerance. Tolerance-- of one shade or another–say from momsdream to patuxent–is vital to immigrants, lest they carry the outright racism of their home country (China) to America. </p>
<p>Let’s hope you find tolerance at college, Thom. </p>
<p>Lucky you to get into fine schools with that degree of anger, racism and substandard English writing skills. </p>
<p>Make the most of your opportunities.</p>
<p>Boy, that’s reassuring. Let’s just stick all the blacks with morons, because well, that’s where they belong.</p>
<p>Do you people actually look at what you type before you post?</p>
<p>Yeah I look at what I type - usually after I hit the post button to be truthful but I stand by that post. Why do you think these kids are flunking out of Anne Arbor? Because they are stupid or because they are ill-prepared? If they are ill-prepared then they need classes that move at a different pace and courses that probably are not even offered at Anne Arbor to bring them up to snuff and they need it in a smaller environment. </p>
<p>You are not doing a kid who can’t tread water a favour by tossing him over the side of the QE2 in mid-ocean and telling him to swim with the big fishes.</p>
<p>BTW Moore flunked out of Flynt.</p>
<p>just fyi - it’s “Ann Arbor” and “Flint”</p>
<p>Anyway, UM does offer (very) remedial classes at all three campusus. The unqualified black students they accept through AA are often forced to go into summer “bridge” programs (basically crash courses in writing, math, chem, etc) before they begin. The thing is, they often fail those too. If you can’t do 10th grade trig, you don’t belong at UMich. I don’t care about your situation. </p>
<p>Fix the disease, don’t band-aid the gaping wound (and send them back to the inner city with 15-30k debt).</p>
<p>UM will never publish it, but I would wager top dollar that the failure rate on classes like general chem, organic chem, and intro econ classes is disgustingly high for blacks.</p>
<p>UM busses them in, fills out the app for them, and accepts them on the spot. They promise them they can become doctors or lawyers or MBA’s out of UMich (making 120k starting salary). The kids hear this and take difficult econ, chem, physics, and math classes without having basic algebra skills. Not surprisingly, they fail.</p>
<p>Once they start failing out of of pre-med, they look for an easier route to “any degree”, but they soon realize there are no gimmies in LS&A. Things like sociology, history, and philosophy can be arguably harder than the hard sciences here (C+ medians and very competative students). There’s no creampuff buisiness program they can switch over to (its ultra competative and highly ranked). They eventually just call it quits.</p>
<p>In the end, they’re right back where they started sans a lot of money they don’t even have.</p>
<p>where we need to really be getting involved is in the grade schools and the high schools.
Too often kids are passed along until high school and now with NCLB are having to be tested in order to get their diplomas
High schools are having to remedy in 4 years- inequities that have occured from preschool and they don’t have the resources or the training to do so.
History teachers aren’t trained in remedial reading, we cannot graduate students who aren’t reading. headstart and other programs that reach out to lower income kids are being cut and that makes them even farther behind than other kids when they start school and some never catch up
That is where we really should be paying attention- to the kids who never make it to high school let alone to college.</p>
<p>I have to agre with emeraldkity on that. We are loosing these kids by middle school if not sooner.</p>
<p>Again, I must bring up the economic factors relating to URM versus ORM. Over the last 20 years alumni donations from Asians has been SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER than their white and African-American counterparts. The operating and capital budgets of most colleges depend on alumni and corporate donations. If there is large percentage of Asian students eventually that means a larger percentage of the alumni will be Asian and the amount of donation dollars will decrease thus effecting ALL students.</p>
<p>^ how do you know that? do you have numbers or references to some studies to back it up?</p>
<p>Nightshiftworker,</p>
<p>If what you say is true that is sad. Can you or someone else give some info on alumni-giving ? Is there some kind of percentage salary earned that alumni keep aside for alma-maters ? Afterall, not everyone coming out of Princeton - irrespective of race/ethnicity - earn in millions. Someone making say, 150K/year, how much do you think they give ? I am asking only so I can talk about this to my children ASAP about this. Giving is important even if only for selfish reasons. The more one gives and strengthens the college facilities, the more the college can maintain its prestige, and more sustained the value of the individual’s degree earned.</p>
<p>Most Div 1 schools with a football team that competes on a national level will have remedial courses. If U Miami’s team averages 825 (from another thread), how do you think they keep them in school?</p>
<p>Alumni Giving Rates National Universities</p>
<p>[ul]
School Alumni giving rank [right] Percent [/right]
Princeton University (NJ) 1 [right] 61% [/right]
University of Notre Dame (IN) 2 [right] 48% [/right]
Dartmouth College (NH) 3 [right] 47% [/right]
Harvard University (MA) 3 [right] 48% [/right]
Duke University (NC) 5 [right] 46% [/right]
Yale University (CT) 6 [right] 45% [/right]
Lehigh University ¶ 7 [right] 40% [/right]
University of Pennsylvania 8 [right] 39% [/right]
Brown University (RI) 9 [right] 38% [/right]
Stanford University (CA) 9 [right] 38% [/right]
Washington University in St. Louis 9 [right] 38% [/right]
Massachusetts Inst. of Technology 12 [right] 37% [/right]
University of Alabama * 12 [right] 37% [/right]
Rice University (TX) 14 [right] 36% [/right]
Cornell University (NY) 15 [right] 34% [/right]
California Institute of Technology 16 [right] 34% [/right]
Univ. of Southern California 16 [right] 34% [/right]
Columbia University (NY) 18 [right] 33% [/right]
Georgetown University (DC) 18 [right] 33% [/right]
Wake Forest University (NC) 18 [right] 33% [/right]
Georgia Institute of Technology * 21 [right] 32% [/right]
Brandeis University (MA) 22 [right] 32% [/right]
Tufts University (MA) 22 [right] 32% [/right]
Stevens Institute of Technology (NJ) 24 [right] 31% [/right]
Johns Hopkins University (MD) 25 [right] 29% [/right]
Northwestern University (IL) 25 [right] 29% [/right]
University of Chicago 27 [right] 29% [/right]
Texas Christian University 28 [right] 28% [/right]
Vanderbilt University (TN) 30 [right] 27% [/right]
University of Dayton (OH) 31 [right] 26% [/right]
University of Virginia * 31 [right] 26% [/right]
Clemson University (SC)* 33 [right] 25% [/right]
College of William and Mary (VA)* 33 [right] 26% [/right]
Baylor University (TX) 36 [right] 25% [/right]
Carnegie Mellon University ¶ 36 [right] 25% [/right]
Case Western Reserve Univ. (OH) 36 [right] 25% [/right]
Emory University (GA) 36 [right] 25% [/right]
University of Delaware * 36 [right] 25% [/right]
U. of North Carolina Chapel Hill * 36 [right] 25% [/right]
Boston College 42 [right] 25% [/right]
George Washington University (DC) 42 [right] 25% [/right]
University of Connecticut * 42 [right] 24% [/right]
Clark University (MA) 45 [right] 24% [/right]
Tulane University (LA) 45 [right] 24% [/right]
North Carolina State U. Raleigh * 47 [right] 23% [/right]
Univ. of Nebraska Lincoln * 47 [right] 23% [/right]
Worcester Polytechnic Inst. (MA) 47 [right] 23% [/right]
Auburn University (AL)* 51 [right] 22% [/right]
Brigham Young Univ. Provo (UT) 51 [right] 22% [/right]
University of Missouri Rolla * 54 [right] 21% [/right]
Univ. of South Carolina Columbia * 54 [right] 21% [/right]
Rensselaer Polytechnic Inst. (NY) 57 [right] 21% [/right]
SUNY College Environmental Science and Forestry * 57 [right] 21% [/right]
University of Arkansas * 57 [right] 21% [/right]
University of Oklahoma * 57 [right] 21% [/right]
Howard University (DC) 62 [right] 20% [/right]
Pennsylvania State U. University Park * 62 [right] 20% [/right]
Syracuse University (NY) 62 [right] 20% [/right]
University of Kentucky * 62 [right] 20% [/right]
University of Tulsa (OK) 62 [right] 20% [/right]
Texas A&M Univ. College Station * 68 [right] 20% [/right]
University of Rochester (NY) 68 [right] 20% [/right]
Washington State University * 68 [right] 20% [/right]
Drexel University ¶ 71 [right] 19% [/right]
Michigan Technological University * 71 [right] 19% [/right]
Marquette University (WI) 76 [right] 18% [/right]
University of Georgia * 76 [right] 19% [/right]
Yeshiva University (NY) 76 [right] 18% [/right]
Miami University Oxford (OH)* 81 [right] 18% [/right]
Pepperdine University (CA) 81 [right] 18% [/right]
Univ. of California Santa Cruz * 81 [right] 18% [/right]
University of Florida * 81 [right] 18% [/right]
Purdue Univ. West Lafayette (IN)* 86 [right] 17% [/right]
Seton Hall University (NJ) 86 [right] 17% [/right]
University of Kansas * 86 [right] 17% [/right]
Rutgers New Brunswick (NJ)* 90 [right] 17% [/right]
University of Vermont * 90 [right] 17% [/right]
Indiana University Bloomington * 93 [right] 16% [/right]
Iowa State University * 93 [right] 16% [/right]
Michigan State University * 93 [right] 16% [/right]
Ohio State University Columbus * 93 [right] 16% [/right]
Southern Methodist University (TX) 93 [right] 16% [/right]
Univ. of California Los Angeles * 93 [right] 16% [/right]
University of Pittsburgh * 93 [right] 16% [/right]
Virginia Tech * 93 [right] 16% [/right]
[/ul]</p>
<p>emeraldkity4-Totally agree. The solution is to provide a solid foundation for these kids before they ever have to take the SAT’s and apply for college. </p>
<p>nightshiftworker-Obviously you’re going to need some sort of study to back up your statement. But even if it is true, don’t Asians save the school money in other areas? Since Asians typically have higher median incomes than URM’s, they require less need-based FA. Also, Asians are more likely to graduate, so how do you balance the fact that there is a higher % of Asians capable of donating vs. a lower % of Asians willing to donate (if that is indeed true).</p>
<p>Asdad-Taking remedial courses in college is truly a sad situation. College cost $$$. I certainly would not want to be spending money to learn something I should’ve in 9th grade. Athletes often get by because their professors pass them without them earning the grades. Perhaps because URMs come from subpar schools, we can grade them on a separate curve from everyone else [sarcasm]</p>
<p>Alunmi giving rate LAC’s</p>
<p>[ul]
School Rank [right] rate [/right]
Carleton College (MN) 1 [right] 66% [/right]
Amherst College (MA) 2 [right] 63% [/right]
Williams College (MA) 3 [right] 60% [/right]
Centre College (KY) 4 [right] 59% [/right]
Hamilton College (NY) 5 [right] 57% [/right]
Bowdoin College (ME) 6 [right] 55% [/right]
Davidson College (NC) 6 [right] 55% [/right]
Scripps College (CA) 8 [right] 55% [/right]
Haverford College ¶ 9 [right] 53% [/right]
Wellesley College (MA) 9 [right] 53% [/right]
Pomona College (CA) 11 [right] 52% [/right]
Swarthmore College ¶ 11 [right] 52% [/right]
Transylvania University (KY) 11 [right] 52% [/right]
Washington and Lee University (VA) 14 [right] 52% [/right]
Trinity College (CT) 15 [right] 50% [/right]
Albion College (MI) 16 [right] 50% [/right]
Colby College (ME) 16 [right] 50% [/right]
Rhodes College (TN) 16 [right] 50% [/right]
Bates College (ME) 19 [right] 49% [/right]
Claremont McKenna College (CA) 19 [right] 49% [/right]
College of the Holy Cross (MA) 19 [right] 50% [/right]
Wabash College (IN) 22 [right] 49% [/right]
Agnes Scott College (GA) 23 [right] 48% [/right]
Colgate University (NY) 23 [right] 48% [/right]
Wesleyan University (CT) 23 [right] 48% [/right]
Lawrence University (WI) 26 [right] 48% [/right]
Whitman College (WA) 27 [right] 47% [/right]
Bard College (NY) 28 [right] 46% [/right]
Randolph - Macon Woman’s College (VA) 28 [right] 46% [/right]
Middlebury College (VT) 31 [right] 46% [/right]
Mount Holyoke College (MA) 31 [right] 46% [/right]
Smith College (MA) 31 [right] 45% [/right]
Furman University (SC) 35 [right] 45% [/right]
Grinnell College (IA) 35 [right] 45% [/right]
Connecticut College 37 [right] 44% [/right]
Kenyon College (OH) 37 [right] 44% [/right]
Thomas Aquinas College (CA) 37 [right] 44% [/right]
Drew University (NJ) 40 [right] 43% [/right]
Sweet Briar College (VA) 40 [right] 44% [/right]
Beloit College (WI) 42 [right] 43% [/right]
Bryn Mawr College ¶ 42 [right] 43% [/right]
Dickinson College ¶ 44 [right] 42% [/right]
Harvey Mudd College (CA) 44 [right] 42% [/right]
Oberlin College (OH) 47 [right] 41% [/right]
Sewanee University of the South (TN) 47 [right] 41% [/right]
Skidmore College (NY) 47 [right] 41% [/right]
Birmingham - Southern College (AL) 51 [right] 41% [/right]
St. John’s University (MN) 51 [right] 41% [/right]
Wheaton College (IL) 51 [right] 41% [/right]
Hollins University (VA) 55 [right] 40% [/right]
Mills College (CA) 55 [right] 40% [/right]
Vassar College (NY) 55 [right] 40% [/right]
Juniata College ¶ 58 [right] 40% [/right]
Occidental College (CA) 58 [right] 39% [/right]
Kalamazoo College (MI) 61 [right] 38% [/right]
Denison University (OH) 62 [right] 37% [/right]
Hendrix College (AR) 62 [right] 38% [/right]
Hobart and William Smith Col. (NY) 62 [right] 38% [/right]
Macalester College (MN) 62 [right] 38% [/right]
Union College (NY) 62 [right] 38% [/right]
Augustana College (IL) 67 [right] 37% [/right]
Franklin and Marshall College ¶ 67 [right] 37% [/right]
Gettysburg College ¶ 67 [right] 37% [/right]
Wheaton College (MA) 67 [right] 37% [/right]
Wofford College (SC) 67 [right] 37% [/right]
Gustavus Adolphus College (MN) 72 [right] 36% [/right]
Pitzer College (CA) 72 [right] 36% [/right]
Bennington College (VT) 78 [right] 36% [/right]
Ohio Wesleyan University 78 [right] 35% [/right]
Presbyterian College (SC) 78 [right] 36% [/right]
Allegheny College ¶ 81 [right] 35% [/right]
Barnard College (NY) 81 [right] 35% [/right]
Colorado College 81 [right] 35% [/right]
DePauw University (IN) 81 [right] 35% [/right]
Knox College (IL) 81 [right] 35% [/right]
Lafayette College ¶ 81 [right] 35% [/right]
St. Lawrence University (NY) 81 [right] 35% [/right]
Coe College (IA) 88 [right] 34% [/right]
Hope College (MI) 88 [right] 35% [/right]
Luther College (IA) 88 [right] 34% [/right]
Sarah Lawrence College (NY) 88 [right] 34% [/right]
St. Olaf College (MN) 88 [right] 34% [/right]
Bucknell University ¶ 93 [right] 34% [/right]
College of Wooster (OH) 93 [right] 34% [/right]
Wells College (NY) 93 [right] 34% [/right]
Hampshire College (MA) 99 [right] 33% [/right]
College of St. Benedict (MN) 102 [right] 32% [/right]
Southwestern University (TX) 102 [right] 33% [/right]
Washington College (MD) 102 [right] 32% [/right]
Muhlenberg College ¶ 107 [right] 32% [/right]
Ursinus College ¶ 111 [right] 30% [/right]
[/ul]</p>
<p>Students that attend LAC’s overall have a higher alumni giving rate than those that attend national universities. Rank for Rank the Lac that ranks #111 gives back to their school at double the rate as its National U. Counterpart.</p>
<p>Norcalguy,</p>
<p>Blacks that graduate from elite universities (which is only where this whole AA argument comes into play at graduate at a comprable rate to their asian and white counterparts, maybe you did not read those postings (# 33, 34, 35 and 154) unless you are saying that whites also don’t graduate at the same rates as asians.</p>
<p>norcalguy, I agree, remedial courses in college is a very sad situation. If remedial courses are needed, they should be offered in some other setting so that one could get into a college. I agree about grade inflation to (some) athletes.</p>
<p>There are many reasons other than academic preparation that influence drop-out rate for URM students. If similar students are graduating from one institution of comparable rigor and not another, then it is time for the latter institution to investigate how URM students are welcomed and accepted.</p>