Agnostic & bad public school-- please help w/private school choice

Parent Cafe
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<p>I live in a neighborhood where there is one public school for all. My son is about to enter middle school (6th grade). In order to raise their state test scores, they stooped to new levels of mediocrity by making Science a half a year program. My son is a “science” kid.</p>

<p>Our son has unique talents – he can put together very advanced models visually. For example, he put together Uberarc 1600 in 5 days, and there are basically no erector sets or snap circuits to buy him. This is not something that the school cares about, but I do. He participated in a University Engineering camp over the summer. He is also a gymnast, dancer, and small for his age.</p>

<p>1) I’m afraid he’s going to get picked on now that testosterone gets flowing.
2) I can’t deal with the mediocrity of the school anymore.
3) We can’t sell our house (money pit) nor afford to move after just coming out of a bad layoff.
4) The secular private school is exhorbitant.
5) I work too much to homeschool, and can do no more than “afterschool”, which is what I had been doing to offset the mediocrity.</p>

<p>I was raised Catholic and continued to celebrate Easter and Christmas in the home, but we are firmly agnostic now. These holidays are really a means to get together. I am torn between a) ability to get a superior education and b) religious indoctrination.</p>

<p>I have looked at private schools. Due to my son’s talents, here’s the deals I am offered:</p>

<p>a) Knowing I am not Jewish, but that son is a “blank slate” (no religious knowledge at all), an excellent Jewish day school is willing to give my son a substantial scholarship to attend. Whacked 10K off of the tuition in fact to bring it down to the cost of the other schools, but still costs more than other options. Did not ask me to do anything religious myself. Son can wear everyday clothes, but son would have to wear a kippa and eat dairy only lunch and would get the dual program as every other kid – Hebrew, Torah, etc. I understand that my son may decide to identify as Jewish after this experience. Really liked the people.</p>

<p>b) Send son to an excellent Catholic school who also whacked tuition to parishioner rate. Were very pushy about religion, kind of made me feel like I was a poverty case instead of asking for a scholarship. Nun was typical of my experiences – no nonsense, kind of critical, but you can tell she cares under the exterior. Priest seemed nice, didn’t even know he was one, having just come back from a lovely vacation in his shorts. Price is well worth what I see them turning out academically. My issue here is more with the religion. I didn’t like being raised as a Catholic woman. I don’t want my son to be Catholic. Then again, I was exposed, and left. Son also does not like having to wear the same thing everyday.</p>

<p>c) A Waldorf School – I love the whole preserve the childhood approach. Beautiful grounds, my son would have a ball. Love the art, the language, the lack of (what appears to be) a strong religious philosophy. No uniform. They’ve just added a 9th grade. I have reservations though. I’ve got to drive further. I’ve read the Waldorf critics. Is my son going to come out of the experience unfit for college? Is this a strong religious philosophy in disguise?</p>

<p>d) A Lutheran School. I really liked this school and so did my son. Very friendly people. Very nice facilities. Son would be in a class of only 9 other children! Excellent test scores, high ranking school. Not far from home. Very reasonable price, cheaper than the Jewish school. Can wear normal clothes. My problem – the religion. The science teacher said that the section of the book teaches creationism instead of evolution. While nobody otherwise went into religion, religion is a subject, there is different dress for chapel days, so religion is important to them. I don’t want my son to be an evangelical Lutheran for the same reasons that I don’t want him to be Catholic, but I think that I like the Lutherans better than the Catholics. My strongest issues against religion are about the equality/treatment of women and what I feel is unnatural celibacy. So my feelings are in this order: </p>

<p>a) No religious indoctrination b) Religious exposure that affords equal opportunity to women and no celibacy and does not confuse him scientifically.</p>

<p>My strongest leanings based on feelings of welcome are between the Jewish and Lutheran schools. The Catholic school costs the same as the Lutheran. The Waldorf school, I’ve not been made an offer yet, and I don’t know how I feel because of the above unanswered questions regarding what future would Waldorf afford him. I also feel like giving up and letting him go to the public school so that I don’t lose my son to religious indoctrination.</p>

<p>Please help. Really need to decide.</p>

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<p>How “religious” is the Jewish school? Meaning, do they also teach creationism instead of evolution? Will your son have difficulties there not being Jewish? How does he feel about wearing a kippa and learning Hebrew?</p>

<p>If the above questions are non-issues for both of you I’d pick the Jewish school. In my experience Jews aren’t into proselytizing the way the Christians are, and it’s unlikely anyone there will tell your son he will go to hell if he doesn’t get on the bandwagon :wink:
I’d think learning Hebrew would be an exciting, and unusual opportunity that would also be intellectually very stimulating.</p>

<p>On the other hand, the issues with the Catholic school seem to be more YOUR issues. They may not be your son’s. (You, however would be paying the bills, and if the underlying Catholic-ness of it bugs you now, just wait till it’s time to write the checks.)
However, the Jesuits have been educating non-Cathlics, even non-Christians, for many a year and if you just keep that in mind you may grow to accept the school’s nature.
But from what you say, I doubt you’d ever grow to accept a school where creationism is taught instead evolution, no matter how welcoming it seems at the beginning.</p>

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<p>I think your views of your own Catholic upbringing would keep resurfacing if you send him to the Catholic school. I’d go with the Lutheran. Lutherans, for the most part, don’t seem to “push” their religion on people. H and I used to be Lutheran, but now consider ourselves Methodist (a little more liberal). Our children attended an Episcopal grade school for several years and are now at Catholic Universities. We often talk about religion and how our views differ from what they may be seeing. It hasn’t been a problem.</p>

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<p>

Yes, but how much classroom time is spent on creationism or evolution? My guess is not much. There majority of public school students learning about evolution and it’s not causing upheaval with their Christian beliefs. I was one of those kids.</p>

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<p>true, toledo. but given OP’s fear of indoctrination, this seemed like a pretty big point, and possibly an indication of the school’s stricter adherence to religious dogma.</p>

<p>And for what it’s worth, I’m an athiest who actually wouldn’t mind my child attending a non-indoctrinating religious school. I’ve often admired Jesuit-style education, and I’m not alone. I know a Jewish family that sends their children to a Catholic school for that reason. The statue of Mary on the school grounds, and even discussion of Catholic holidays, hasn’t caused an upheaval with the children’s Jewish identity.</p>

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<p>Hell would freeze over before I would send my kid to a school that taught creationism instead of evolution. :smiley: (And since I don’t believe in “Hell,” I guess that means never.)</p>

<p>It seems that the school most likely to have a robust science curriculum and least likely to push overt religiosity on the kid is the Catholic school. </p>

<p>I share your admiration for some aspects of Waldorf education, especially for elementary years, but I wonder whether the school you describe would be able to offer the breadth and challenge in science that it sounds like your S needs.</p>

<p>The question is probably can you maintain sufficient distance from the Catholic school to enable you to cope with your personal issues.</p>

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<p>I also would run, not walk, from a school that taught creationism.</p>

<p>I would also be skeptical that the Waldorf school would provide your son with the rigorous education you are seeking. Perhaps you could talk with the teachers and ask them frankly about how students learn subjects which involve many facts and are not so “childhood friendly” (for example, science and math). What high school do the students finishing the Waldorf school attend? That could also tell you a lot.</p>

<p>How many of the students at the Jewish and Catholic schools are not practicing Jews or Catholic? </p>

<p>If a sizable minority of families at either school are also not particularly religious, perhaps that could increase your comfort that a number of students will be in the same shoes as your son.</p>

<p>Since you were raised as a Catholic, at least your son would share culturally with the students in the Catholic school.</p>

<p>He might feel more like an outsider in the Jewish school (not sure if that would be a problem with him or not).</p>

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<p>D1 had two friends who came from a Waldorf school to her K-12 secular (independent) private school in 9th grade, and they did fine socially and academically in high school. Also, a lot of independent schools offer financial aid (need based); can’t tell from your post if you qualify, but thought I would mention it.</p>

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<p>Your son is about to enter middle school.
Do you see him doing a 6-12 program at the new school?
or a 6-8 and then finding a 9-12?</p>

<p>My personal experience is that my son entered a Episcopal tradition non-denominational all welcomed PK-12 school in grade 7, and in retrospect we should have done a 6-8, or 6-9 and then located a different high school. My kid changed that much.</p>

<p>Maybe your decision making is best thought out as a 2-step process. Are there local non-public high schools that your son would be interested in attending 3 years from now? Or perhaps the local publics will offer what he needs at that point?</p>

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<p>Here’s a practical question to ask the schools:</p>

<p>What is their primary emphasis - religion or education?</p>

<p>In our town - most of the private schools place a heavy, heavy emphasis on religion - it permeates everything they do. While their education is not bad (probably better than the public schools) it’s not stellar.</p>

<p>We ended up putting son in a college-prep Episcopal school from 2nd grade until 12th. They were required to go to chapel once a week (and dress up for it), they had a Christian education class every single year - it clearly was a christian environment - but it wasn’t heavy-handed (if that makes sense). Their emphasis is very much all about academics (99% of the students go on to 4 year colleges) and they will tell you that. The religion is secondary. Even if you are agnostic, IMHO, there is nothing wrong with studying the bible and understanding how religion works. I feel like son benefited from it even though I really dislike organized religion.</p>

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<p>I attended, for academic and social reasons similar to the ones you describe in your son’s case, a Catholic girls’ high school as the only non-Catholic child in attendance. (My parents are devout mainstream Protestants, and I was at that time, and remain, agnostic/atheist). I found the cultural-religious differences quite fascinating–and I got a much better grounding in the fundamentals of Christian doctrine in Catholic-school Religion class than I had received in Sunday School in my parents’ church. I felt free to learn Religion just like any other academic subject, without “consenting” to it (so, for instance, I memorized the orders of the angels, but felt no compulsion actually to believe in angels). I attended Mass with the other students but did not take Communion. I never felt discriminated against for my non-Catholicism; in fact, the school gave me one of its two merit scholarships every year.</p>

<p>The school successfully fostered the development of ethical character, courtesy toward fellow students, and so on. It did not make me Catholic but it did make me respectful of people with strong religious views. Also, the background I received has been very helpful for understanding the literature and history of the West from late classical antiquity to about the 18th c., because European culture in that time period is so deeply entwined with Christianity.</p>

<p>So, if I were in your shoes, I would not have any problem sending my kid to either a Catholic or a Jewish school, provided the school were academically solid. I would, however, refuse to send my kid to a school that declined to teach evolution, especially if he showed promise as a student of the sciences. It’s not just an issue in biology class, but in earth science, astronomy, etc. Catholics have no trouble with the teaching of evolution because they do not believe that everything in the Bible needs to be taken literally. “My” nuns read the Genesis Creation story as an allegory, not as literal fact.</p>

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<p>I’m with Consolation and fendrock - there is no way I could send my child to a school that taught creationism. So that would rule out the Lutheran school for me. Funny, I had my own children in a Lutheran preschool when they were little, because that was the least religious preschool I could find.</p>

<p>If I was picking for my own children, I would pick the Jewish school. I was raised Catholic also and I’m sure my Catholic guilt complex would return full force if my child was in a Catholic School. From what you wrote above, it sounds like you might be similar. It also sounds like a “non-indoctrinating” religious school is a better educational alternative for you than the public school. Religion is such a large part of our society that it is usually a good thing for people who aren’t religious to understand religion - whether they choose to believe it or not. We live in a very religious area, but are not religious ourselves. We managed to give our children some “religious education”, so they understood many common religious references, and also taught them to be respectful of those who believe differently than they do. </p>

<p>I like cnp55 comments about considering where you see your child in high school. That may help sort things out for you.</p>

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<p>I could not send my child to a school that taught creationism.</p>

<p>I think Waldorf is wonderful for early childhood education, but know less about what they offer older students. (I have a cousin who teaches at a Waldorf school and her children attended them. One joined the circus, the other is attending a fairly well known LAC with a pretty alternative reputation.) My impression: great for kids interested in the arts, not so great for others. Waldorf philosophy is somewhat cultlike, but mostly harmless. (My sister-in-law did some of their teacher training, but couldn’t buy the whole picture.)</p>

<p>I’d ask around about the Catholic school. We have several in our area and some are very good and have lots of non-Catholics. Others not so much.</p>

<p>I’d lean towards the Jewish school, because in general Jews are not interested in converting people. I don’t think there’s much danger there. I also really like the way that questioning and thoughtfulness is an integral part of their beliefs. That said, they are requiring more religion than I would feel comfortable with (and my kids have a Jewish grandfather so it’s at least part of their heritage.)</p>

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<p>Thank you all for your messages. Some follow up:</p>

<p>Given a choice between uniform everyday and no “hat” vs. wearing what he wants everyday and wearing the “hat” (kippa), he chooses the kippa. In fact, was asking if he can make his own. He likes to learn language and voluntarily accompanied me to a Mandarin language exchange when he was younger, so I think he’d be fine with Hebrew. He’d have to take Spanish if he went to the other schools. The school says that it is accepting of all levels of faith and accepts non-Jews, which is obviously true. That being said, I think that there are very few non-Jews. If they all wear the kippa, the kids won’t know, but I’m not sure how they really will treat him if he reveals that he is not Jewish. Older stats say that every one of their students get at least a Bachelor’s. I am an attorney, and several attorneys that I know are on the board for this school, and I am pretty certain that my old professor had a hand in the scholarship assistance, and all academics/religion aside, it carries great weight to me that I see this offer as a strong extension of kindness and generosity to my son. </p>

<p>On the religion, it says “students receive a firm grounding in Jewish knowledge, ethics and practice. The study of Judaic texts involves questioning, analyzing, discussing, interpreting, thinking etc.” </p>

<p>As an attorney, this does not bother me on an intellectual level, as I have found it fascinating to study the application of religious law in US Courts. On the other hand, he will probably be bored with the praying. But he’d have to do that at all of the schools but the Waldorf. </p>

<p>I’m not sure if the Jewish school teaches creationism. As for the creationism, it was one section of the science book at the Lutheran school. I have no experience with what happens if this is taught. I do know that he’d come home and I’d tell him what we believe. On that level, would I give up an otherwise great academic curriculum over that? No, unless it reflects an insidious indoctrination that is likely crossing over into every subject, all day. That I can’t compete with. Or maybe I’m underestimating my own influence, and I shouldn’t consider the religion at all, and go with the Lutheran school…</p>

<p>The Catholic school – true, it’s my issues. My son is a “blank slate”. We do, by tradition, celebrate Easter and Christmas, so he’d “fit in more” that way. For some reason though, they appeal to me the least. Their academics make them worthy of consideration. It’s true that I even know Muslims here who send their kids to the Catholic schools, and they deal with it. But because I was raised Catholic, I don’t want every meeting to be to “bring me back to the fold”. </p>

<p>Ugghh…</p>

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<p>I guess the big question is what exactly do you want for your son? And I mean really want? Is this about challange, is it about preparing him for a Top-Ten college, is is about raising child who loves to learn…etc. Waldorf will more than likely make him passionate about learning. Will learning creationism make him a believer? He is not 5. You can simply work with him after school during homework and teach him opposing view points. A child that age has the ability to understand conflicting opinions. Children should learn to respect all religions, non religions, etc…a general acceptance of people, whether they share your belief system, should be the goal. Having him educated in said religions would go a long away toward him understanding them in the first place. And being educated about them does not mean you have to be a believer or a follower.</p>

<p>One option that was not mentioned was the public school. Have you extensively examined the school for their program on gifted and talented students? If the school cannot educate him and you can prove it, then they need to find a way to educate him. With that said, inspiration does not always come from the brick and mortar building that holds the school. Pairing him with a teacher that is willing to challange him outside of normal levels could be your key here. Don’t be afraid to stand up a demand what your son needs.</p>

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<p>The Lutheran school sounds like Missouri Synod or some other fundamentalist Lutheran denomination (ELCA is the “liberal” Lutheran denomination). Missouri Synod does not ordain women.</p>

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<p>You mentioned that one of the things you don’t like about religion is the treatment of women. What branch of judaism is the jewish school affiliated with? It seems like it would be at least conservative and possibly modern orthodox if they have to wear a kippa. Do these branches of judaism have any practices with regards to treatment of women that you would disagree with? i.e. can women be rabbis, etc. In some brances of the Lutheran church, women cannot be ministers (Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, I think). Are you OK with this? If a school is teaching creationism instead of evolution, this would be a big red flag for me, especially if my kid is a “science kid”. If they are teaching creationism, I would bet that religion is pretty pervasive at the school. Check to see if there is any type of mission statement etc- this might clearly state that their first goal is the religious aspect and education is second.</p>

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<p>While I understand your antipathy towards the Catholic option, it can truly be one of those ‘teaching moments’ (or years) for you and your son.
First and foremost, your son won’t get the creationist instruction. Assuming the school is well-funded and well-supplied, he will probably get a top-notch science education as well as social sciences and English. </p>

<p>You don’t like the religion aspect and worry about indoctrination. Ok. This is where you have to be prepared to discuss what is taught and how your feelings, beliefs, and experiences have led you to where you are today. He will have to take a religion class every year. He may have Mass, but he will not be forced to be baptised, ‘accept Christ as his personal Lord and Savior’, or any of the possiblities which are at the Lutheran option (which kind of scares me). As long as there is a healthy dose of respect for the teachers and the ‘religous’ aspect, he will probably do quite well. </p>

<p>Do you know the makeup of the school? % Catholic vs. not?</p>

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<p>I, too, was raised Catholic and am Catholic no longer. As it happens, I converted to Judaism as an adult, and I have taught in a Jewish day school. </p>

<p>I was all for the Lutheran school until I reached the word “creationism.” That’s a stopper for me. It says something I find very important about the integrity of the science program. Special creation may or may not be factual (OK, I believe it isn’t), but it certainly isn’t science. Science is a branch of knowledge that describes the natural workings of the universe; by definition, special creation is not the natural workings of the universe.</p>

<p>I can’t in good conscience recommend Jewish day school for a non-Jewish kid. The dual curriculum is extremely time-consuming, and while I think the school where I taught (not Orthodox, but with a dual curriculum, and with a very good reputation in the Jewish-day-school world) did a pretty good job of teaching both secular subjects and Judaics, the Judaics did take time from the secular subjects. And it was a lot of work for the kids. In addition, the culture of a Jewish day school is very, very Jewish. My non-Jewish colleagues sometimes felt somewhat “other,” despite the best efforts of the faculty to include them. And although the school would have enrolled a non-Jewish kid under the conditions you’ve described, there weren’t any such kids in the school.</p>

<p>If he attends the Jewish school, will he have to attend a daily minyan (services)? That’ll be in Hebrew, and he won’t have a clue what’s going on. (Possibly not ever! Seriously, investigate this.) There could also be an issue if the school expects students to wear a tallit (prayer shawl) during minyan, because a non-Jew should not wear one; same issue for tefillin (phyllacteries). (This is different from a kippah. Anyone can wear a kippah.) This won’t be an issue in sixth grade, when everyone is younger than bar-mitzvah age, but it will become an issue in 7th, when kids turn 13.</p>

<p>It could be all right to be a non-Jew in a Jewish day school, but I don’t know of any Jewish day school (not even among the theologically and politically liberal ones) that’s just casually Jewish. In these schools Judaism affects the school calendar, the daily schedule, the food we eat, and even such things as the jokes we make and the slang we use. When I started teaching in a day school, I couldn’t read all the signs. Most of them were in Hebrew and English, but there were a few untranslated signs in Hebrew (and even one in Russian–this was the '90s!).</p>

<p>Testaduro, I guess I’m saying, think long and hard before you make your choice. And please, feel welcome to ask more questions about Jewish day schools if you like–either here in this thread, or by private message. (BTW, you’re not from DC, are you?)</p>

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<p>Also, with all schools but the Waldorf, son would end at 8th grade. So maybe the religion should not be such a big factor…</p>