Aiming way too high?

<p>Well, this time the dean said she would look into extra tutoring. Maybe a different dean makes a difference. If it happens, great. If it is not too late for extra tutoring, better yet. I have also suggested he get in there and talk to the professors to see where he stands and what they suggest he do. I told him not to stand around while they smooze. Politely interrupt if needed and make a firm appointment for another time if office hours are somehow not convenient for the prof. I gave him some of the ideas from my posting in the parents forum. Ear plugs and where to sit during exams for example.</p>

<p>I know what it is like to give up your all your dreams and interests and settle for doing something for 30 years that you hate every minute, just because you need a job somewhere. You are also not going to be very good or make very much money doing something you hate. It is not a life. That is why I find his difficulties so discouraging.</p>

<p>I just wanted to comment on the idea that your son’s life is “over” if he doesn’t make it at Mudd… I was going to relate my story - I went to an elite university from a high school that didn’t have AP classes (this was 20 yrs ago) and found it hard to keep up in the math/science classes, should have stopped out but was told to keep trying.</p>

<p>But, I think the story my boss tells me of his educational path is more relevant. He started at a technical school and quickly found it more work than he could handle, he left and traveled across the country ending up at San Jose State, then Stanford for grad school. In between he worked every kind of job imaginable, ambulance driver included, documentary film maker in Turkey, etc and now has run his own company for 25+ years. You don’t know where you son will end up. He may get the help he needs and finish at Mudd or move on to something that may turn out better. You and he need to remember that at 18 years your life is just beginning, even when it feels like it is over.<br>
Good luck and I <em>know</em> things will work out (just that he has a mother who cares is a great start!).</p>

<p>“Good luck. We’re all pulling for him.” </p>

<p>That’s for sure! Geekmom63’s whole post #98 (and other words from others) seemed insightful and helpful, so I’ll add no more ;)</p>

<p>The current body count that I know about is: </p>

<p>2 students hitting their heads,
1 student having a meltdown but getting counseling,
1 student trembling through the entire physics quiz and no, the physics teacher neither talked to nor cared about the trembling student.</p>

<p>I am sure there are more casualties, not to mentioned the ones who were already forced to drop out.</p>

<p>and maybe he will end up in dead-end jobs with no future that don’t pay the rent and have no benefits just like Mom. But hey, I am not dead or on the streets yet.</p>

<p>BCM, I just found this thread and your description of your son’s issues and I see myself during my freshman year at MIT. It took a lot of help, a lot of support and a lot of humility to get me to the point where I believed that I could succeed there. There were times that I just wanted to leave and give up. Without close friends, it would have been impossible for me to continue. It is clear from some on this board, that your son has some good friends. I was eventually able to figure it all out, but I knew people that weren’t and they just needed a less oppressive environment for them to thrive in. </p>

<p>For whatever reason your son is not succeeding. I’m sure it’s not because he’s stupid, or slacked off, but more likely that he has just not figured out how to handle the pace and the pressure, and in the interim, he got hopelessly behind which lead to a feeling of - well - hopelessness. The problem in this case is that the courses don’t slow down to wait for him to catch up and if the normal pace is to work all of the time, then its not actually possible to catch up (there’s probably some law of physics about this). Your son is clearly not stupid. Your son should not give up his dreams, but a change of scenery might do him a lot of good. He needs to get his mojo back, and he probably needs your positive support to do so. If you berate him and tell him he’s stupid then I think that you would be hurting him. If he is smart enough to get into Harvey Mudd then he is smart enough to be the engineer that he wants to be. </p>

<p>I recommend two schools where he might find the supportive environment more to his liking: Rose-Hulman and WPI. Both of these places seem to be to able to take above-average but below genius-level students with above average aptitude in math and nurture them into practicing, self-confident engineers. I can suggest more, but those two are probably the right level. If he was accepted at either before, perhaps a phone call with the admissions office (by him not you) might be helpful in assessing his prospects. I’m sure that the deans at Harvey Mudd can even help your son make such inquiries and transition. He should try to work with them with humility so that they want to help him. No matter how much you are paying, these are living breathing people who will respond better to people who treat them well. Your son is not the first person to have these issues, and not being able to handle Harvey Mudd is not so rare that people don’t recover. </p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>There has been a lot of fatalistic and questioning speech about what happens to Mudders who fail classes or transfer. I don’t know what’s happened to everyone, but I feel like it might be relevant to share the stories of a few people I know who have been in various degrees of academic trouble while at Mudd. I apologize for the length, but hey, stories are never short.</p>

<p>-A guy who failed the first semester of his sophomore last year (or ITRed in Mudd lingo - Ineligible to Reregister). He somehow managed to start taking classes at his state university during his second semester, in spite of his 1.7ish GPA. Pulled off a 3.8ish GPA during that semester and the following fall semester at the state U. He loves Mudd, so he appealed his ITR and is back this semester, doing much better (though now a year behind).</p>

<ul>
<li><p>I know a handful of people who have taken leaves of absence (voluntary due to stress, or involuntary due to bad grades in the previous semester), and I know a few who been approved to take a lighter coarse load (12 units instead of 15, graduating in 5 years). Mudd really likes to encourage the 4 year schedule, but they do make exceptions. Also, one of these people learned within the last year that he has serious test anxiety. It was never a big enough problem for him in high school to really think about it, but after consistently bombing tests at Mudd, he lost his pride and decided to get tested. Now he gets extra time on all of his tests, making them much less stressful. BCM, you’ve mentioned that your son is doing poorly on the tests. Its possible that he could have some sort of learning disability that has never surfaced because he’s been brilliant enough to make up for it in the past. There is no shame in asking for extra time if you have a reason, I feel like a good 10% of one of my classes was moved to the extra time room for a recent test.</p></li>
<li><p>I’d guess at least 75% of Mudders get one of those lovely “Academic Advisory” emails (telling you that you are in danger of failing the class, generally sent right after big tests) at some point in their time here. I’ve already collected 5 in my 4 semesters here (2 during the semester than BCson is currently slogging through), and I’m still on track to keep up that 2.75 GPA needed to keep my merit scholarship. All 3 of my roommates have received at least one, and all of them are on the Dean’s List. This goes to say that there is a big difference between bad grades in a class or two and actually failing out of the college, or even not understanding the material. Frosh often don’t tell each other that they aren’t doing well in their classes, since they feel awful about it (who of us has received a C before?), and worry that their classmates will look down on them. Especially since it sounds like the Dean is turning BCson away since he’s not at the very bottom, I suspect he’s not doing as badly as he thinks he is.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>-People fail classes, and stay on Mudd. I have a friend who has failed a class (actually, she dropped the classes on drop day to avoid the F) during 3/6 of her semesters here. I know others who have failed many more (including several who have failed the same class multiple times). All of these people are very smart, and I’ve often been surprised when they mention their failures. Everyone has their limit, and its nothing to be ashamed of, especially when it comes to the Common Core (as the Mudd transcript actually explains to those it is sent to, most people’s GPAs rise once they’re done with the Core).</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Mudd has a transfer program of some sort. I nearly failed my physics class last semester, and since I was only taking 14.5 credits at the time, that failure would have brought me below the 12 required to be a full time student. When I talked to the dean of academic affairs about this, she scared me half to death by telling me that I would have been forced either off campus for a semester, or into the transfer program if I planned to transfer. Apparently, if a student wants to transfer, Mudd allows them to take a slightly easier course load for a semester in order to beef up their GPA for the transfer application. Or something like that. </p></li>
<li><p>Everyone I know who transferred out of the class of 2012 is doing fairly well. Admittedly, a lot of these people weren’t in academic trouble, but they just weren’t enjoying life here at all. The one’s I know of are at Columbia, Tufts, OSU, Cooper Union, and Brown. Some of them had to start over as freshmen, I’m assuming due to low scores causing the credits not to be transferred. But hey, these are top tier schools. Getting into a state university won’t be as bad. You should remember that the first semester transcript of a freshman is only going to show passes (provided they passed all their classes), and I’ll bet the deans and professors will willingly write to the admissions office of another college, explaining the intense situation at Mudd. If your son does consider transferring, it might be a good idea to save those tests he dislikes so much. If he somehow is having trouble getting in due to low GPA, he can show the admissions office the caliber of the work that he’s been doing, and remind them that he was taking 5 classes + 2 labs.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>-Perhaps most importantly, the best advice I’ve received from an alum is that happiness is the key to success at Mudd. BCM, you say that your son does nothing but study. I can’t imagine that this is good for his health. I find that I work much, much, better when I take a break to go to a concert, exercise, play video games with friends,etc in the middle of my homework. Most Mudders grew up obsessing over grades, and not having much of a social life. It’s easy to fall into the trap of constant worry over grades, but its also the quickest trail to depression. To survive Mudd, most people need to find something other than grades that makes them happy, and regularly take time to do it, even if it feels like slacking. (Additional relevant story for those who aren’t bored yet: I got 3 hours of sleep last night. I also went to an AWESOME a capella concert on Pomona. I enjoyed my 6.5 post-concert hours of working alone in wee hours of the morning, because the concert totally jazzed me up. For comparison, if I don’t do something awesome before an (almost) allnighter I get depressed and sometimes give up before I finish)</p>

<p>Anyway, enough preaching and rambling. I shouldn’t write posts when I’m tired. Hopefully this was somewhat enlightening though.</p>

<p>Miru, Thanks for your comments. I can’t understand for the life of me what the Dean and professors ARE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH. Why take some of the brightest students in the country and try to break them? Why scare them, make them feel stupid, tell them they are at risk of failing? This is similar to boot camp, break them down/ then build them back up. Why teach at what some have called the graduate level before these kids have had a chance to mature more socially and academically? What or whose purpose does this serve? Many of these kids have never had a social life or dated before they get to college. What if being really smart was the one thing that they really felt good about, and then the college experience takes that way from them too? Just having these kids take a few more liberal arts classes won’t make them socially well rounded. It appears to border on sadistic. I can’t find anyone on CC that raves about their wonderful experience at HMC. It is more like an endurance test. Certainly in the 21st century we have progressed in our teaching methods beyond this. Life is too short and there are many other choices. Maybe thats why they only teach undergraduate students. Mature self assured people would not put up with this.</p>

<p>^ You’re right. Why bother attending a top technical university like MIT, Caltech, or HMC? It takes someone who is really immature to want to put up with that kind of hard work. I think I’ll go to an easier university where I can keep getting my As and feel good about myself, even though by challenging myself I could have probably learned a lot more. Those institutions are ruled by evil administrators who are out to get me and cut me down.</p>

<p>Seriously…</p>

<p>Blackroses is exactly right. I would note that today’s The Daily Beast lists the 100 happiest colleges. Harvey Mudd is #5. Now I will be the first to agree that their methodology is entirely bogus (part of the “happy” quotient is based on weather and I am not sure the Hoch gets an A for food), but they did go on blogs to see how the students liked the professors, etc. and retention rates were compared. It goes back to finding the right fit. Some kids are happy even when tired and working really hard. The work load had kept my son up all night more times than I care to think about and he complained about a few classes he would rather not have taken, but he is “happy” he took them because they have given him the foundation he needs to succeed at what he wants to do. Happy comes in many different forms. And I cannot imagine him commenting on CC about whether he was happy or not. So I agree with the person who has posted here before that you can’t judge the HMC student body by the folks who post here. If he as time to goof off, he hangs out with friends or sleeps. He knew what he was signing up for. They warn the kids enough, certainly at the ASW.</p>

<p>The reason places like HMC, MIT and CalTech exist and teach the way they do is because as uncomfortable and demoralizing it is to learn at the pace they teach, you can learn a lot more overall than you could by going slower and actually digesting it. Some people handle it better than others, and those that do get a lot more out of it. Whether they enjoy that kind of pace is another story, but the results speak for themselves. </p>

<p>This is not the only pace to learn engineering though. Different people have different learning styles and the slower more methodical approach works better for some.</p>

<p>Ok. I think I am wrong. That was just my take from reading these forums. I must say I have no direct or personal knowledge of the college. I was just trying to consider the students and the process rather than just looking at outcomes.</p>

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<p>True. But it’s all relative. I went to an engineering college in the 1980s. Although it was far less rigourous than Mudd… I didn’t meet any freshman who would have said that the pace was slow. I even heard of valedictorians (usually from the smaller schools w/o AP) having trouble. </p>

<p>Engineering is just a tough major, and you have to love challenges and hard work to thrive.</p>

<p>What does AE stand for? People have referenced it several times in this thread.</p>

<p>Academic Excellence > It’s a group tutoring program run by upperclassmen, for Core Math, Chemistry, and Physics.</p>

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<p>I agree, it’s hard no matter how it’s done. However there is a difference between hard and the “drinking from the firehose approach”. </p>

<p>What I’m saying that the conclusion that because the OPs son is doing poorly at Harvey Mudd implies that he’s not cut out for engineering is a faulty conclusion. There are many successful engineers who would not have thrived in the “firehose” style of learning. I’ve met many people who went to graduate school at MIT who had to TA undergraduates and many of these people said that they could not have handled the MIT undergraduate experience and are very grateful that they went to a place where they could digest their lessons and even contemplate. Different people thrive in different environments.</p>

<p>ClassicRockerDad Where would you send a student to get a really good undergraduate engineering experience? Are there any with balance, where a smart 18 year old could thrive, develop socially and academically and still be able to attend a good graduate school if so desired?</p>

<p>Houstonmom, it appears to me that MANY of the students thrive and are happy at Mudd, and Mudd has a huge percentage of grads who go onto good grad schools. There have been many threads and posts dedicated to saying just that. Other schools <em>that my son and I researched</em> that sounded very good are Olin (same level as Mudd/MIT/Caltech) and Rose-Hulman (ranked #1 by USNWR for undergrad engineering programs), which pride themselves on helping students through in just the same way Mudd does. Rice (ivy-quality) and Case are small universities featuring engineering. </p>

<p>I think that’s what people have been saying - different schools for different people. Mudd seems to be good-to-fantastic for 600 of its 800 students. My son visited Mudd, Olin, Rice, Caltech, and Rose-Hulman, and at all of them, the students seemed very happy and loved their schools, peers, profs, and opportunities. I even know a few people who are extremely happy at my local state engineering school. And the ones I named are only the ones we did sufficient research into for him to apply to. All engineering programs have high attrition rates, just like all premed programs. For the kids who really belong in engineering, they have to choose a school based on fit, which does include desire for academic intensity, desire to attend classes, desire for sports teams, humanities classes, excitement of the nearby towns, etc.</p>

<p>Geekmom Thanks so much for the suggestions. We are still in the research mode. I am glad your son really loves Mudd. We plan to visit Mudd and Caltech this summer.</p>

<p>Houstonmom - There are many strong engineering programs that would allow a student to get into a top engineering school, assuming he/she has an awesome GPA, top GRE scores, and stellar recommendations. Your summer visits will get the ball rolling for which attributes are most important to your son (rigor/intensity, size, city/rural, diversity of majors, etc). </p>

<p>From my research, Mudd and Cal Tech and MIT are among the most intense schools. Students should pick them because they really want that kind of enviroment. These schools don’t necessarily ensure better grad school options. In fact, I read on the CC threads that MIT discourages “in breeding” (accepting its own undergrads) for some of their programs. Also, deflated GPA could be an issue… but I think that is a bigger factor for med schools than for engineering grad schools.</p>

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<p>This is totally false, and I’ll tell you why. A committee of MIT professors chooses who gets admitted, not some social engineering committee like undergrad. They have real skin in the game. These are the students who will conduct research for THEM. Often admissions comes with financial support but they are taking risks by admitting unknowns. For MIT undergraduates, they are a complete known. If a professor knows you because you did research for him, sees the potential in you and really wants you in, they get you in. My entire application to graduate school from MIT to MIT was a Statement of Objectives and recommendations. My department already had everything else they needed to know. A significant fraction of graduate students were undergraduates at MIT. </p>

<p>Also Houstonmom, I think that GeekMom63 summed it up perfectly. I’m not sure exactly what you meant by balance - it means different things to different people. I would ask questions like - do they teach to the top of the class or the middle? - which you can calibrate looking at SAT Math scores. You can ask students whether they are enjoying the school. You can ask if they have time to digest what they learn, or are they being firehosed. There really is a spectrum.</p>