Alcohol?

Parent Cafe
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<p>“But in younger adults, alcohol consumption provides little, if any, health benefits, according to the guidelines. Instead, it’s associated with a higher risk of serious injury or death.”</p>

<p>Given that most of the cited health benefits from moderate drinking tend to be with the heart and heart related diseases then this isn’t too surprising. There aren’t too many 25 year olds having heart attacks (and if they do there is likely some serious defect at fault) so there wouldn’t be much benefit to measure. The cited negative effect would be because (unfortunetly) there isn’t really much ‘moderate’ alcohol consumption amoungst young adults… in the US that age group tends to either not drink at all or drink very heavily. Outside the US, it’s common for this age group to be in the ‘I have a glass of wine for dinner each evening’ group, but here unfortunetly that’s not the case…</p>

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<p>If you actually believe this, you are dangerously misinformed.</p>

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<p>“College kids will always drink but lately it is worse and I’m not sure why…but I know having weekly vomit fests and joking about forgetting weekends and sometimes years is not healthy.”</p>

<p>Definitely agree. Purely anecdotal, but from what I see of my own kids, and what I remember from my own college years, a lot of the immaturity really does come from a complete lack of… maturity. Which, in my case and the case of my generation, came from going out into public places and actually having a glass of beer in a restaurant or bar, and if you acted up you got your behind kicked out in a heartbeat. Maturity= experience= finding out what is acceptable behavior in the real world, really quickly.</p>

<p>I was going into “disco’s” (remember those?) at 18- having a little bit of some sweet concoction, and dancing the night away. Now, the kids go into a house or apartment party and play drinking games (which aren’t allowed in bars). I worked in a bar (more like a “beergarden”) in college. At least then, the patrons (students who were 18-21) got threatened with expulsion when they started playing quarters or some such game. Now, it continues unabated in closed quarters, and then leads into shots of harder stuff, and things get out of hand very quickly.</p>

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<p>The NYT has an article today written by a reporter who is juggling the question of what to do about his teens’ drinking. It truly can be a delicate balance in parenting.</p>

<p>As to underage drinking, we follow the law. In our state , toasts, and a bit of wine with a meal at home under parental supervision is permitted. Beyond that, it is not. For us it is more of being a role model in obeying the law rather than our opinions about it. With our kids, we have unfortunately had the experience of them pushing the limits as it is and see nothing good coming of showing our defiance of the law. Also, where our kids have gone to school, their stance is that parents should enforce the state drinking laws at home. According to their experts that have been talking at parent and student meetings, it does NOT help teach a healthy attitude towards drinking by allowing kids to drink at home “moderately”. Anecdotally, I have not seen much difference at all among my older son’s peers between those whose parents were strict about drinking and those whose parents were lax. I can also tell you that there are many surprises as to who are having alcohol abuse problems now in their mid twenties. Some of those kids were very responsible teens/college students whose parents trusted them absolutely and would have sworn on their lives that their kids were not going to be alcohol abusers.</p>

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<p>depends what school you go to i guess. there are most than a few bars/clubs by my school where one can go to play beer pong or flip cup, or any other game if you like</p>

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<p>If you read my posts, which you clearly haven’t, you’d see that I’m referring to harming other people. I’m a responsible person; I don’t need someone to be worrying about my health. For that matter, I’m legal to drink, so don’t preach to me. This alcohol driven domestic abuse claim is completely nonsense. People who become violent when drunk are violent people to begin with.</p>

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<p>From the point of view of a 17-year old high school senior…</p>

<p>I was raised between Europe and the United States, where attitudes about drinking vastly differ. In Europe, I believe the drinking age is technically 18, but there is very little carding, and in practice the drinking age is ~14. Certainly, when I was in my freshman year in high school at an international school in Rome, everyone I knew drank, and drank quite frequently. Did anyone ever “binge-drink?” Certainly not - if anything, those who got very, very drunk were looked down upon for being immature and unable to judge their drinking capacity. My mother began encouraging me to drink wine with meals around the age of 14/15, and whenever I am at home, I do so. (I have been going to a New England boarding school for the past three years, where the risk of expulsion makes drinking not an option.) I spent the past summer backpacking in Europe, able to obtain alcohol, and while I did drink, I did so in moderation. Depending on the day, the effects ranged from “comfortably relaxed” with a glass of wine in Rome to “a bit silly” (going with a friend for drinks at a cocktail bar), but even at my silliest I was never drunk enough to make a decision I would not have made sober, let alone pass out or throw up. I attribute this to the sensible way my mother portrayed alcohol: an enjoyable pastime for mature individuals in moderation, a way to make potentially awkward situations (first dates, cocktail parties) a bit easier, but both dangerous and vulgar in excess. </p>

<p>I remember being shocked at my first visit (overnight) to Princeton. I was taken to a frat party and an eating club by my hostess (a freshman who had never been allowed to drink before college), and while I had a bit of alcohol, I remained on my feet while my hostess quite literally ended up collapsed on the quad. By contrast, my visit to Oxford (drinking age is 18, not enforced - wine is even served daily in the dining halls during dinner, and there is a “college bar” on-campus) also included moderate alcohol use (ie, we all went out for a drink after our interviews), but, again, nobody over-used it, and nobody got “drunk.”</p>

<p>As it turns out, I will be attending Oxford next fall. While, certainly, the drinking age had no impact on my decision, it is nonetheless true that I felt much more comfortable with the relaxed, relatively sober social scene at Oxford than I did with the party-hard passed-out-ed-ness of Princeton. It wasn’t about the drinking. It was about the lack of fascination with the Forbidden Drink.</p>

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<p>We are an international family. I have seen much drunkenness in Europe and Asia. Also the statistics have shown some high numbers in many European countries in terms of alcohol related deaths and morbidity. They even beat out the US! I have seen binge drinking there as well in drinking contests and beer fests. Ever been to Faschin in Mainz? I have to say that binge drinking and alcohol poisoning here on the US campuses are new phenomona to me. I went to college in the US and though I saw much drunkeness and foolishness then, I don’t remember anyone ending up in a hospital from the alcohol content, nor do I know of anyone dying directly from drinking to much. I know a number of such cases now. I don’t know what the current situation is in other countries’ unis in this regard, however, and this could well be a US happening that many say are the result of the raising of the drinking age.</p>

<p>Also, there are many,many alcohol abusers who started drinking at home introduced to alcohol by sensible parents who wanted to teach their kids the mature, moderate way to drink. I have been told by educators here that the law should be observed here regarding drinking and that those parents who flaunt it have more alcohol related problems with their kids. Whether this is true at all, or by a large amount, I think that there can be other ramifications of parents pshawing the law regarding drinking age. There are very few kids who are going to take their parents guidelines as verbatim. If there are exceptions and wavering on the rules, the amount of such leeway becomes the debate, not the fact that you break the rules. As George Shaw said to an outraged woman who agreed to sleep with him for a million dollars, and was insulted when he then offered $100, “We have established what you are, we are now quibbling about the price.”</p>

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<p>Young adults also drink because it is a taboo in this country. It is a form of rebellion. </p>

<p>I think because we do not make a big deal about drinking, our daughter feels very comfortable about talking to us about her social life in college, and drinking is a big part of college scene whether we like it or not. When I ask her what she did last Fri, she would be very comfortable in telling me that she went to a fraternity party, who she went with, who she met there, and whether she had much to drink. She doesn’t feel she needs to hide much from us.</p>

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<p>Following on from the Oxford comment, my cousin went to Cambridge and can second the comments about alcohol there. </p>

<p>At Cambridge, the university/college PROVIDE alcohol to the students (e.g. hall dinners usually include about 2 glasses of wine). The university and colleges also run ‘college bars’ for the students… again this is the university SERVING alcohol to students. On weeknights, these college bars are open until about 10-11 and then on the weekends they run (with university funds and support) dances and parties that last till 1-2 AM. University and college staff are present to see that nothing gets out of hand, but it rarely does. The university treats its students as mature individuals and expects mature behavior in return. On the rare case that somone does something stupid, they are dealt with, but real problems are rare. Also, as mentioned in regards to Oxford, if someone does overdo it they’re looked down upon for being immature… compare that to the US where almost the opposite is true in many cases. I’ve visited there and compared with the US, students were far more mature when it came to these issues. I’m convinced that it’s because children there are brought in a culture where alcohol is not a taboo subject, but still taught that it’s something to treat with respect. </p>

<p>The drinking age in the UK is 18 (although this primarly applies to the purchase, not consumption, of alcohol). </p>

<p>My point is that the problems we have at US universities are mainly social issues and the fault of poor choices by immature students NOT because there is something inherently bad with alcohol.</p>

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<p>My parents allowed me to drink whenever I felt like it, so it’s basically completely lost its luster and I don’t drink at all. If they didn’t allow me to drink, though, I’d probably be drinking like Jack Sparrow in college.</p>

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<p>If you smoke a cigarette at age 12 and smoke 2 everyday after that you will not cough. That is what everyone has been saying. wow</p>

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<p>I don’t even understand how you can make a comparison between smoking cigarettes. Having a glass of wine everyday has no long term detrimental effects on the body, in fact, it has been proven to be beneficial. Yes, there are alcoholics and binge drinkers who do do damage to themselves, but this is only because they are inexperienced with alcohol. Smoking 2 cigarettes a day and not coughing is sign that your cilia along your bronchial track are paralyzed which means that long term damage has already been done. Please don’t be so naive as to compare cigarettes and alcohol.</p>

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<p>I think maturity (at least in some areas) is a big thing. I never as a teen felt compelled to do anything I couldn’t at home to rebel…I hated the taste of liquor and couldn’t see why I had to cultivate a taste for it…why was that so necessary? Watching all this sober is only entertaining for so long. I am seeing that with my own…they had tales of the craziness and then it’s “there has to be something else than watching the ambulance come every week for the students”. I think in picking a college, looking into things other than parties for entertainment is a good idea if you aren’t a big drinker or don’t want to at all. Sometimes the students find each other but sometimes it’s hard. That’s why sub-free housing was good for my daughter,not everyone obstained, but at least the dorms were kept neater and vomit wasn’t all over the stairs, etc. </p>

<p>I spoke to some students at Yale that didn’t drink, they had fun every week without it, but their college is in a big city and of course there is almost always something going on…an isolated small college might not have as many avenues.</p>

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<p>Alcoholism is not a function of being inexperienced with alcohol. It is an addiction.</p>

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<p>Wait, you’re debating on letting the 20.5 yo drinking? HAHAHA</p>

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<p>Nope-</p>

<p>Back to the original post… it’s not about “letting the 20.5 year old drink.” OBVIOUSLY that’s his choice outside of our home, and one I know he has made. It was about choosing to serve alcohol, illegally, in our home to our son, in front of his brothers who are younger. (In Florida it is not legal. I looked it up.)</p>

<p>It wasn’t even about letting 17 year olds drink at home to teach them about alcohol. That ship sailed 3 years ago. We chose to follow the law, and our instincts, and NOT offer alcohol to our kids at home. OTOH, when we are places where it is legal for our 18 year olds to drink (Europe, cruises, etc.) we invite them to join us for a glass of wine or beer, when it seems appropriate.</p>

<p>I agree that many of our laws could be changed. Perhaps some of those who feel the legal drinking age of 21 should be changed should work to make that happen. It’s interesting that most of the laws are now being enacted by folks who could drink at 18. Believe it or not, most lawmakers don’t just make up laws willy-nilly. They act on their knowledge and facts about an issue. If it is truly so ludicrous to have the drinking age 21 rather than 18, and you are so sure this law leads to binge drinking among college students, why not contact your legislators and ask them to change the law?</p>

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<p>mom2three - I think you have answered your own question.</p>

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<p>This has been an interesting discussion. I am curious, though, about the rationale for those who would draw the proverbial line in the sand about underage drinking, in all circumstances, based on “the law”.</p>

<p>Not all laws are “created equal”. There are some laws that are rooted in the need to maintain the fabric of our society and without which a society will disintegrate into chaos. Laws against murder and theft are the most obvious. There are some laws that regulate the structure and order of our society and govern how we will conduct our affairs with each other. Laws concerning contracts and transactions between members of our society are obvious examples of those. Laws that fall within these categories command the highest level of adherence and enforcement because if disregarded the ability of our society to function is put at risk.</p>

<p>Then there are a whole bunch of other laws. There are laws that are based on an articulation (whether accurate or not) of the mores of society and may reflect societal values or simply the values of a subgroup that has the political power to have the laws passed even though the underlying values are not shared by everyone in the society (and at times not even by the majority). Laws in this category are often fluid and often fall into disuse and non-enforcement or are repealed outright as societal perceptions or political realities change. The Sunday Blue Laws and Prohibition are examples of this.</p>

<p>Then you also have “status” based laws where conduct is prohibited or permitted differentially based on some identifiable “marker” that places an individual in one group or another. The regulated conduct is ok for some but not for others based on some identifiable characteristic. Age based laws such as those establishing minimum ages for driving and drinking fall into this category. Sometimes these laws are rationally supported by objective data (such as minimum age to obtain a license) and sometimes the law also reflects an articulation of “values” whether overtly stated or not and whether reflective of our society or just a politically influential subgroup. Laws establishing minimum drinking ages are of the latter.</p>

<p>So the question I have for those who state that allowing someone under 21 to have a drink is wrong, is it wrong because you believe the objective data establishes that such puts the “young” person at risk to their health and well being, is it wrong because you subscribe to the values that it is immoral or is it wrong because the law is the law and everyone is obligated to adhere to the law?</p>

<p>If it’s the first (objective data/health), there is a large area of dispute. The data doesn’t support that simply because a kid is under 21 the kid is at risk from consuming alcohol. It depends on a kid’s physical and emotional developmental age, the circumstances under which it occurs and the degree of parental supervision.</p>

<p>If it’s the second (“values”), then you are on the real slippery slope of imposing your personal values and notions of good parenting on others. It is presumptuous to do so; a parent who concludes that it is appropriate for a variety of reasons to permit a kid under 21 to have a drink in the privacy of their home during a family function, holiday, celebration or dinner is no less worthy or responsible a parent than those who believe otherwise.</p>

<p>If it’s the third (“the law is the law”), that is the least worthy rationale to justify adherence to any law let alone “status” based laws. It is not the “black letter of the law” that warrants our respect and adherence but the underlying societal purpose for the law. Our history is filled with “status” based and other laws that were repugnant and ultimately were recognized as such and eliminated. Even today there are laws on the books that no one in their right mind would seek to enforce. How about laws prohibiting various sexual practices. Should those individuals who enjoy those practices be branded as criminals or refrain from the sexual practices simply because the law says those acts are illegal. Should our government be looking into our bedroom windows? Of course not, no more so than a parent who concludes in the exercise of sound parental judgement that it is appropriate to allow their own “underage” kid to have a drink in the privacy of the parent’s home should be criminalized.</p>

<p>If you want to use the existence of age based legal restrictions as a tool to justify taking a values based position on alcohol with your own kid, that’s fine. I used the “Jr License” restrictions in my state as a tool to help enforce an 11pm curfew. But don’t suggest that the failure to “follow the law” in all cases represents a risk of decay to our society or the moral fabric of another parent’s kid.</p>

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<p>If it’s completely nonsense, then lets give these people all they want to drink, all the time. Is that what you believe? I don’t think so.</p>

<p>Again, I never said alcohol causes violence - what is does is increase the chance (of someone who chooses to drink with a violence tendency) that the person will harm other people, not just themselves as one poster has suggested. But there are CLEAR correlations between alcohol and crime - that cannot be disputed; with crime, there are always victims, so the premise that no one should be told they can’t drink because they’re only hurting themselves is a fallacy.</p>