<p>Its not the same thing because:
- The midatlantic + NE is more populous than the south. And
- Standardized test scores, for example NMSF cutoff scores, show that NE and the Midatlantic perform much better academically than the south.</p>
<p>You sure about that - that the NE is more populous than the south? These are 2006 census population figures …
Northeast 54,741,353
Midwest 66,217,736<br>
South 109,083,752<br>
West 69,355,643</p>
<p>Just estimating off the top of my head, but that adds to approx 300 MM,
and the percentage of population would then be:</p>
<p>Northeast 18%
Midwest 22%
South 36%
West 23%</p>
<p>Hmmm … Dartmouth pulls 45% from the Northeast (NEng+MidAtl), yet the NE only accounts for 18% of the population. Seems regionally skewed to me!</p>
<p>(Hint: There’s not a university out there that isn’t regionally skewed to its own backyard.)</p>
<hr>
<p>Definitions of each region </p>
<ol>
<li>The Northeast region includes Conn., Maine, Mass., N.H., N.J., N.Y., Pa., R.I., and Vt. The Midwest includes Ill., Ind., Iowa, Kans., Mich., Minn., Mo., Neb., N.D., Ohio, S.D., and Wis. The South includes Ala., Ark., Del., D.C., Fla., Ga., Ky., La., Md., Miss., N.C., Okla., S.C., Tenn., Tex., Va., and W.Va… The West includes Alaska, Ariz., Calif., Colo., Hawaii, Idaho, Mont., Nev., N.M., Ore., Utah, Wash., and Wyo.</li>
</ol>
<p>^ Regardless, neither of Buddy’s characteristics necessarily makes Dartmouth less “regional”. More selective, maybe.</p>
<p>I would include Delaware, D.C., WV, Virginia, and MD to be part of the Mid-Atlantic.</p>
<p>Ivies are overrated.</p>
<p>The point I’m trying to make is that by definition a good American college is going to have more students from CA, MA, NY, and NJ because that’s where more of the good students are. And 3 of those 4 states happen to be in NE/Mid-Atlantic.</p>
<p>Buddy, it’s pretty clear you haven’t traveled much. What do you think people are like in states other than those states? Do you think that the midwest and the south are pretty much made up of cornfields and haystacks and hayseeds and people who can count to 11 using their fingers because they’re inbred?</p>
<p>I don’t know if you realize this, but living in the suburbs of Cincinnati, or Minneapolis, or Kansas City, or Columbus, or Nashville, or St. Louis, or Chicago, or Atlanta, or Charlotte, or Dallas, or wherever – is pretty much the same as living in the suburbs of NY, Boston, Phila or DC. Oh, sure, there are some regional nuances to dress and food and cultural norms, but the people aren’t “stupider.” I think you think that the experience is wildly different, but it’s not.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Don’t you think a lot of top students in CA get “siphoned off” by the UC system, esp with UCLA and Berkeley? As well, I think you don’t fully understand how state flagships in other parts of the country “siphon off” top students who, if they lived in NY/NJ/MA, would be looking at exclusive privates. It’s inconceivable to you that the val/sal etc would look at a state flagship, but I assure you it happens in Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan, Indiana, etc. with high frequency.</p>
<p>Wow, Buddy. You don’t truly believe that, do you? When you’re in a hole, stop digging.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Why would people in CA, MA, NY and NJ necessarily be any smarter than people elsewhere? (BTW, I was born in NJ. I didn’t lose my brain cells when my family moved outside of the northeast.) What – are there no lawyers, bankers, successful businesspeople, engineers, doctors, etc. outside those areas?</p>
<p>I’d put MD, DE and DC in the Mid-Atlantic, VA and WV in the South.<br>
In any case it looks like neither Vanderbilt nor Dartmouth is more convincingly “national” nor “regional” than the other. Not by these numbers.</p>
<p>Of course, Vanderbilt is in a major city where many residents drive Volvos and drink Merlot … to wash down their moonpies.</p>
<p>CA has a lot of the smart students because it is such a huge state; the same goes for NY. For NJ and MA, it is because they are statistically the smartest states, with PSAT NMSF scores that hover around 223. In contrast, there are “dumber states” such as Arkansas, where the PSAT cutoff score is usually about 201.</p>
<p>Many schools try to obtain as close to regional parity as possible, which is why being from an underrepresented state is considered a hook. To deny that there are dumb and smart states is just ignorant.</p>
<p>Tk,
I loved your line,</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Every time that I fly thru the Nashville airport, I stop at one of the concessionaires and buy a few moonpies. Very delicious treats! </p>
<p>Buddy,
I’m concerned that you’re hopeless. My advice would be for you to live for 2-3 years in some part of the country away from the coast. It would be educational and give you the rounding and an appreciation for diversity that Princeton obviously did not. As a start, read p’girl’s comments again. </p>
<p>Btw, I know that there are different classifications being used by college websites in how they describe their student geographic distribution. Some will place Virginia and even North Carolina into the Mid-Atlantic bucket while others will place them in the Southern bucket. This difference can often affect the numbers and the perception of the regional distribution. </p>
<p>As for the geographic “hook” aspect that you refer to, this usually means states with sparse populations, eg, Alaska or South Dakota or something of that sort with state-wide population under 1 million. It rarely means states like Alabama (population approaching 5 million) or Arkansas (population approaching 3 million).</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>So which is the rule that the “good colleges” should try to follow?
Make sure they get more than enough kids from the “smart states” of CA/NY/MA/NJ, or make sure they get regional parity (commensurate with that state’s population)? Make up your mind.</p>
<p>I think you’ll be really surprised when you get to Princeton that there are smart kids from all over, and from all socioeconomic classes as well.</p>
<p>Virginia not in the South? Last time I was in Richmond I saw dozens of statues of Confederate generals. I really wouldn’t call a place with those sorts of monuments “Mid-Atlantic.”</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>But that goes against what Buddy McAwesome wishes to believe! </p>
<p>Let’s see - when the smart kid from MA chooses to go to Dartmouth, it’s because he’s picking a national school and the fact that it’s within driving distance of home is just icing on the cake – hey, that much easier to come home for the holidays! But when the smart kid from KY chooses to go to Vanderbilt, it’s because it’s only a regional school and he’s too much of a hick to go anywhere outside his own backyard. Got it. </p>
<p>This is shades of that horrible thread in which it was revealed that the plane trip from, say, Boston to Minneapolis (for a student going to, say, Carleton) is far more difficult than the plane trip from Minneapolis to Boston (for a student going to, say, Tufts).</p>
<p>coureur,
I’m with you. Virginia is in the South. </p>
<p>A few years back, we did a thread on this topic and someone posted data by state (collegehelp?). The conclusion was just as p’girl is stating, ie,that certain colleges perceived as being “national” really were not any more so than peers dubbed “regional.”</p>
<p>
Vandy split its enrollment from southern states into South and Southwest states. It’s actually 52% from the South.</p>
<p>Virginia is really like two states. NoVa is Mid-Atlantic and Richmond and south of that is the South, in my opinion. Just ask UVa applicants; NoVa high school students (sometimes) complain that they have different admissions standard (i.e. harder) since UVa wants geographic diversity within the state. Arlington and around there is not southern at all. By the way, Duke’s top 6 states are North Carolina, California, Florida, New York, Texas, and New Jersey. And it’s 36% from the South (including Texas) and 30% from the Mid-Atlantic or Northeast (they include Va as part of Mid-Atlantic).</p>
<p>"Its not the same thing because:
- The midatlantic + NE is more populous than the south."</p>
<p>I don’t know about populous per se, I speculate it’s more a case of a couple things:
a) Density. High capability college applicants per seat for high capability college applicants, within 6 hr drive. I’m guessing there is a high density of high capability applicants in the Northeast.
b) Wealth. The ability to afford a private college.
c) Regional mindset. This is what I was thinking of when “parochialism” came up. There are some regions where relatively small numbers of students go out of region to college, whereas in the Northeast it is very common. You will find students from the Northeast overrepresented at virtually all “good” schools, vs. students from any other region (other than the local one). By a factor of 2 or more, for the schools I looked at.</p>
<p>d) Regard for the local public universities. Regard is rather high, for example, in the midwest, and unfortunately less so in the Northeast. This influences parents there to be more willing to pay for private colleges, and once you are paying that freight then incremental travel costs are just one more thing.
e) Value placed on “prestige”. There may be some regional differences in this regard.</p>
<p>" And
2. Standardized test scores, for example NMSF cutoff scores, show that NE and the Midatlantic perform much better academically than the south. "</p>
<p>You can look at the NMSF cutoffs by state.
<a href=“http://lonestaredconsulting.blogspot.com/2010/01/psat-national-merit-scores-are-in-did.html[/url]”>http://lonestaredconsulting.blogspot.com/2010/01/psat-national-merit-scores-are-in-did.html</a></p>
<p>IIRC these cutoffs are set to be the top (1-3/4%? 2-1/4%? 2-3/4%? I forget) of PSAT scorers in that state.
Sort of unfortunate, 2 of my kids would have made semi-finalist if we’d stayed in the midwest, but narrowly missed the cutoff in NY. It’s true that many midwest students don;t take the SAT, but when we were there most of the better students we knew of did take the PSAT, precisely because of NMSF.</p>