<p>Um, I think the bigger point is the fact that her date that night apparently did not exist. The guy’s name she gave before the date did not correspond to anyone at UVa, and the picture which the guy sent to her friends was of someone from high school who hardly knew her. This was before the alleged incident, so there was no trauma effects on memory possible yet.</p>
<p>And you’re sure of this. Absolutely sure. Because there’s never any reporting on the internet that isn’t verifiable. </p>
<p>Same thing with bullying in public schools. My state just published that acts of violence and bullying are down in NJ. Because after the initial rules are put in place, the schools realize what a hassle it is to actually file charges. </p>
<p>My youngest son and his friend were bullied, and my son told his GC. His GC told his case manager (my son is classified) who called me. After 5 minutes of describing what she was told (they were being called “gay” etc. and being pushed in gym daily - my son reported his friend mentioning suicide), I asked her what would be done about it. She said nothing unless you want to file a report. I said, wait a second, didn’t you guys file a report since my son reported it to you? She said no, you have to request one. Then she went on and on about how disruptive it would be for my son if a report was filed, and that they’d instead “talk to the boy” (aka the bully) and try to get the behavior to stop. And then if it continued, they’d file a report. They also talked about moving my son and his friend out of that gym class, and I asked if they are the victims, why would they be forced to change?</p>
<p>And my son later said that his friend was moved into his gym class because he was teased in the other gym class…</p>
<p>As for being “protected” - if we truly had protection, crimes would not happen. We have reaction to a crime, not protection. If someone is trying to address the PTSD part of this, that is not the college’s business. We have to tease out the crime, the appropriate reaction by the police, the appropriate action by the college, and what the end game is.</p>
<p>So - protection = prevention. Make campus alcohol-free, even for those of age (extreme to some). Or make anyone who hosts a party with alcohol responsible for the health and wellbeing of all who are at the party - any OD’s, alcohol poisoning, rapes, assaults, etc., the owner is responsible for compensation. </p>
<p>Is it to weird to suggest mandatory freshman drug, alcohol, sex, <em>and</em> ethics/crime education for all college freshmen? And put in place clear punishment for what colleges consider unacceptable?</p>
<p>(does a college have a right to throw out a roommate who entertains guys for money? does a college have a right to throw out a guy who spikes drinks with alcohol and thinks it is amusing?)</p>
<p><a href=“Rape and Sexual Assault Among College-age Females, 1995-2013 | Bureau of Justice Statistics”>Home | Bureau of Justice Statistics;
<p>This just in from the U.S. DOJ. A study regarding sexual assault rates on college age women. Here’s the headline: </p>
<p>“The rate of rape and sexual assault was 1.2 times higher for nonstudents (7.6 per 1,000) than for students (6.1 per 1,000).”</p>
<p>So non-student women are at higher risk but they don’t get any special federal civil rights protections like title ix provides to college students. They just have to rely on that criminal justice system.</p>
<p>Also, extrapolating from the college data, it looks like the number would be 24.4 per 1,000 over four years. I haven’t studied the report, but 24.4 in a thousand is a long way from one in five. Like a factor of 10 difference.</p>
<p>Discuss.</p>
<p>@collegealum314. I find you to be a reasonable poster in all cases. I agree that colleges mishandle sexual assault issues and will continue to mishandle sexual assault cases. As Lisak has stated, the reason this has even fallen to colleges is because the police have taken a position of actually failing to investigate rape claims, or mishandling these investigations so poorly that educated high earning women are demanding some justice. The fact of these women being educated, knowing how to use the media, being brave and unafraid to speak out is changing the landscape of rape investigation. Hopefully soon it will change the way we investigate rape in the criminal justice system. For example, perhaps rape kits will eventually be available at ALL hospitals in all places. Right now, not so much. Perhaps the police will actually attempt to gather evidence in a timely fashion rather than attempting to dissuade the women from filing and pressing charges.</p>
<p>We do have a right to demand that practices be put in place to protect and assist our daughters in filing and supporting rape claims, since they are essentially alone there, and usually raped during a time in campus life when they have no real long term friends or support in place. As I’ve said before, there should be people on campus to accompany these women to get rape kits, to protect them during police reports and to make sure they are not being bullied or misquestioned during the set in of trauma and shock, which effects the mind significantly.</p>
<p>All that said, I have posted in other threads, and do not have the time to do so today, the horrific stories of college rape report cover ups. Furthermore, I have posted many stories about the practice of punishing the survivor for reporting. Expulsions of victims, etc… It’s been an atrocity, and this is what brought about the investigations to begin with, the retribution schools were taking against the reporting women.</p>
<p>As for what happened in the Jackie case, we can speculate just like Erdley. On the other hand, it might be interesting to see what ends up coming out in the actual investigation.</p>
<p>I don’t disagree with you HarvestMoon1 in post 3015. </p>
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<p>I guess anything’s possible. But then you also have to throw out the evidence that her friends thought something bad happened to Jackie.</p>
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<p>It wasn’t intended to be funny at all.</p>
<p>In the context of discussing consent (which is what most of this thread is about), it occurred to me that Erdely implied that the rape was part of a hazing ritual. Assuming that this was true (altho granted I’m not sure why we assume anything Erdly wrote is true), under hazing law as I understand it, consent is not a defense. In other words, under the law, hazing victims do not consent to be hazed just as incapacitated victims do not consent to have sex. So, assuming these men were being hazed, then they did not consent to have sex with Jackie. That could mean that either Jackie raped them, or if she also did not consent, then the fraternity raped both the men and Jackie.</p>
<p>If the gender roles had been reversed, i.e., if it was Jack who had sex with five women in a hazing situation, would you have thought it was “funny” to suggest that Jack raped the women? I don’t think so.</p>
<p>I certainly do not have any idea what actual happened to Jackie, although I’m inclined to believe that either she had a traumatic sexual experience OR the onset of some kind of mental illness (given the stuff with the fake texts and so forth), or quite possibly both, one triggered by the other. </p>
<p>But I honestly do not understand how a conscious, sober, undrugged girl can be literally forced to have oral sex with 5 men, unless someone is holding a gun or some kind of weapon on her, or is threatening to kill a hostage. I mean, she has teeth. (Okay, well I guess I can exert my imagination and figure out how she could be restrained and something jammed between her teeth that would prevent her from biting down or closing her mouth. Ugh.) But the idea that a group of undergraduates would threaten her with death or grievous bodily harm or do the kind of thing I’m thinking about and then just let her go and expect that nothing will happen is just about unbelievable. (If she were drugged into unconsciousness, or if she were unconscious from drinking, like others we know of, that would be another matter.)</p>
<p>I increasingly think that the public does not need to know what actually happened. (Law enforcement, yes.) Unlkess, of course, what happened was illegal, in which case it ought to go to court and people will inevitable find out. If she is to have any kind of a life, she needs SOME privacy. This whole thing is just such a huge, screaming mess. But we do need to know what did NOT happen.</p>
<p>The police are investigating and will reach some kind of conclusion which will be made public, And, I agree that she should never have agreed to be interviewed knowing her story would not stand scrutiny and she certainly should not have agreed to use her real first name, ever. Also, the accusing of a specific frat is the only reason this article blew up and I’m not even sure she did that as it sounds much more like that part was the pre-determined writer.</p>
<p>Edit - The problem with the story is not and never was that it’s unbelievable. It’s that it’s false. </p>
<p>What happened to Liz Seccuro in 1984 at Phi Psi at UVA is pretty unbelievable too, except for the fact that it’s true and verified. </p>
<p>Lots of things are unbelievable. The guy in Cleveland who kidnapped those 3 girls and held them as prisoners - that’s unbelievable. There was a guy who did something similar in California a few years back. I’m not remembering these monsters’ names, which is fine. </p>
<p>Mom3’s link is titled The Campus Rape Myth. Kinda boasts, from the outset, what its perspective it is. </p>
<p>Agree with PG, "It’s striking to me that there’s so much focus on “see? The whole story is false.” </p>
<p>And then some of the coy, “I just don’t get it” pseudo reasoning. “If there’s more rape off campus,” a sort of Roseannadanna face scrunching, "what’s all this fuss about rape on campus?</p>
<p>I can’t believe some stat or some crappy anecdote is bandied as some reason to eliminate or reduce attention to one arena where this trouble occurs: the campus, where young men and young women spend much time mingling.</p>
<p>Maybe some want to go back to dorms by gender, very restricted socializing, a dress code for women, etc. </p>
<p>And then we get the befuddled suggestion that when a woman is pinned down, someone puts his you-know-what into whatever orifice, she is raping him because… </p>
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<p>I don’t even really ‘care’ anymore about this incident and if she’s not cooperating with the police chances are there will be nothing to report. I hope that “Jackie” gets the help she obviously desperately needs, but I don’t really care anymore if nothing more happens other than she gets some help. And that’s sad because there is probably some little kernel of truth to something in there…maybe. </p>
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<p>She has teeth, but they have fists, they’re stronger than she is, and they’ve already shown that they are willing to use violence to get their ends.</p>
<p>In the William Paterson case, the attackers are accused of barricading the woman in a room, then raping her. One of the attackers is accused of grabbing her by the hair and forcing her to perform a sex act. Let’s guess that the sex act is oral sex. Put yourself in the shoes of the woman who is undergoing this violent attack. Does she think that resisting is likely to make things better, or worse? </p>
<p>This is not a tea party. If she bites, she doesn’t think the attackers will say, “Oh heavens to Betsy, I didn’t realize that you weren’t interested. My deepest apologies. Here, take my arm, let me escort you to your room.” She is likely to fear with good reason that her fighting back will lead to her being punched in the head and choked, and then raped some more. She’ll still be raped, and she’ll lose teeth too. </p>
<p>People like to assume that if they were in a crisis situation, they would act perfectly, and make every optimal decision. But people actually in the middle of crises don’t do that. They panic, they freeze, they’re stunned, they do things in the midst of the crisis that, in the light of examination afterwards, were not the perfect choices. And so would you. </p>
<p>Criticizing a woman’s tactics in response to a horrible violent attack sounds churlish at best to me. </p>
<p>Poetgirl is right in 3017: We have to remember how poorly these incidents have been handled very recently with victim blaming and “boys will be boys” attitudes. Absolutely that had to change.</p>
<p>I am encouraged because the issues are being discussed and how, even in the Occidental story, there were many that tried to help the girl back to her room and to safety. And, someone reported above, at least on some campuses a greater willingness of college kids to call out those that may be trying to take advantage of a situation.</p>
<p>I also believe there is one side here: protection of women from rapists. The murky middle is the area of disagreement: how should colleges handle this, should there be mandatory reporting, are most rapes by serial predators and where is the line between enthusiastic consent and too drunk to do so. As well as whether giving consent and actively participating in the act when drunk does not constitute valid consent. </p>
<p>From the temporary thread, I thought the NY times piece was is a good read and yet sad. It made me think we have to teach our daughters/sisters/nieces/friends that is necessary and appropriate to say no in a forceful and loud way so that there is no misunderstanding that consent is being withdrawn. Affirmative consent is really key, but if things go beyond what the girl thinks she consented to, she has to overcome fear of confrontation to make it very clear she wants to stop. </p>
<p>Well, PG, undoubtedly you are correct. </p>
<p>It just boggles my mind, though, it really does. That people would actually do such things.</p>
<p>BTW, in Liz Seccuro’s case they engaged in that horrifying behavior knowing she was drugged. Which makes the idea that they thought they could get away with it more rational on their part. Actually, the most unique thing about her story is that the guy confessed and apologized.</p>
<p>The other thing is that the reaction of the University officials and health center employees vividly illustrates what prompted the current situation, whatever one thinks of it.</p>
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<p>That is not just in. It was in last week, and it was already discussed here. </p>
<p>The numbers are from the National Crime Victims Survey (NVCS). We’ve already talked about how the Bureau of Justice, which administers the NVCS, asked the National Research Council to study whether the NVCS was an accurate way to measure what it purported to measure. The National Research Council concluded that [the</a> NVCS systematically undercounts rape.](<a href=“http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18605]the”>Front Matter | Estimating the Incidence of Rape and Sexual Assault | The National Academies Press) Inaccurate numbers don’t become more accurate if they are repeated.</p>
<p>A naive person who doesn’t understand surveys and statistics might be tempted to conclude that even though the NVCS undercounts rapes, nevertheless we can still conclude that non-students are raped at a higher rate than students. But that is not a justified conclusion. We have no reason to conclude that stranger rapes and acquaintance rapes are undercounted the same way. We have no reason to believe that a respondent would be equally likely not to report a stranger rape as an acquaintance rape.</p>
<p>It is probable that stranger rapes occur at a higher rate in non-students, because non-students are significantly poorer than students and come from poorer families in neighborhoods with a higher rate of violent crimes committed by strangers. The non-students suffer a higher rate of other violent crimes, and they probably suffer a higher rate of stranger rape too.</p>
<p>But we don’t have good data on the incidence of acquaintance rapes. It might be that acquaintance rapes are more common on campus, just because a new crop of vulnerable 18-year-old victims shows up every fall for the campus predators to prey on, whereas off-campus acquaintance rapists may have more trouble locating and isolating victims.</p>
<p>Here’s a pretty good article about the 1 in 5 numbers which are definitely getting a closer look and that was certainly not the goal of the author’s campus rape story but that has been the interesting result. Also, striking to me is how little the advocates such as our now infamous writer care about the young women involved. It’s all about the cause and I think that’s sad. And, any effort to prevent the problem in the first place is labeled victim-blaming so we get more victims. And, some imaginary delusional disturbed so-called victims, too. No questions allowed. (sarcasm)</p>
<p><a href=“Campus Rape and Sexual Assault Researchers on 1-in-5 | Time”>http://time.com/3633903/campus-rape-1-in-5-sexual-assault-setting-record-straight/</a></p>
<p>Cardinal, predators have no problem finding potential rape victims outside of a college campus environment. Seriously.</p>
<p>There is a long history of trying to make university and college communities better than the real world, and not just a little better, as close to perfect as possible. It’s a charming part of our academic tradition, and derives from the utopianism of many in our founding generations. So it’s not very interesting to point out that life outside the groves of Academe is a little tougher than life on the inside. That doesn’t (and shouldn’t) stop anyone from trying to do better.</p>