All UVa frats on suspension

<p>Think of it this way: if you didn’t dismiss other women’s stories based on the RS Jackie article, I wouldn’t have to remind you rape happens. </p>

<p>No one here is advocating impact journalism, regardless ofwhether you can pawn the accusation back on another poster. It comes down to the decline into cheap shots, eh? You did say you disbelieve the other tales based on the RS article. “I am not dumb enough to stake my credibility on them either given the current story.” A loss.</p>

<p>I lost a line in the posting: where the RS Jackie veracity matters is in the matter of Jackie. Don’t be so eager to dismiss a real issue because of one article that’s being questioned.</p>

<p>Momofthreeboys, you are mistaken in your belief that it’s not a crime for some idiot to think it’s cute to grab your boob. At least, you are mistaken if the idiot only thinks it’s cute, but acts on that thought.</p>

<p>The law is clear and unambiguous on the matter.</p>

<p>And the law doesn’t hinge on whether one poster (or more) could shrug something off. </p>

<p>\Here’s the link to DOJ’s definition, folks: <a href=“http://www.justice.gov/ovw/sexual-assault”>http://www.justice.gov/ovw/sexual-assault&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Back in the day, I knew guys who said that, even with penetration, if the act didn’t complete, it wasn’t intercourse. Huh? People found all sorts of ways to dig their heads deep into the sand. She wanted it, she dressed a certain way, she’s lying, she’s wacko, this’ll ruin his life. Those days are supposed to be past. The definition of assault includes penetration and more. For a reason. </p>

<p>Not all gets reported, sure. (It should be, sure.) But seeking to minimize is the same crap we worked to eliminate, for decades. Some crow about not believing, look for some figures that reduce the number of incidents or perps. Think about what you are saying.</p>

<p>Wish we had mini around. for his perspective on how much gets hidden and the false perceptions people cling to - and tout. </p>

<p>Cardinal Fang: Since you have read and analyzed the reports, do you believe the only rapists on campus are the serial rapists? Do you believe there are some men who become rapists at college, who might not otherwise? I don’t know if you feel you can answer, but I am interested if you can. thanks.</p>

<p>I don’t know. There are some guys who intend to “score” and intend to make it difficult or impossible for women to stop them, the serial predatory rapists, who intentionally incapacitate and/or overpower women. And there are some guys who get drunk and in their drunken lack of judgment convince themselves that women who don’t consent are consenting. I have not read enough to form an opinion on which group predominates.</p>

<p>Deleted.</p>

<p>Cardinal Fang you are right just because rape or sexual assault was not committed doesn’t mean rape or sexual assault was not committed this is what I always keep telling my friends who still think No means No works which it doesn’t if you try to have sex and the girl says no and you stop you are just as guilty as any boy who doesn’t listen and forces sex anyway I mean the law would consider you not guilty but rape activists wouldn’t and they are right because the boy thought of having sex and that itself is criminal enough and in particular if the boy then whines and whines for days till the girl gives in and says yes that’s still rape as that is coercion I don’t know about unwanted grabbing and fondling as that’s a misdemeanor and not a felony and rape and sexual assault is a felony but I think it is best to group it all together and call it all rape as then the numbers look good and we can have a rape culture on campus even though that still means 97 percent of men on any given year are not doing anything remotely resembling rape or sexual assault so any thoughts on how we get these guys too by expanding the definition of rape and sexual assault? I kind of like one of these links that said that to end rape culture yes is yes is not enough and we need enthusiastic yes which means that if the girl has a paper to write for submission next night and just gives the boy a quickie so that he leaves her alone to write it that’s a clear case of rape even though the girl said yes because it was not an enthusiastic yes and that way the boy has to also gauge the level of enthusiasm of the girl when she says yes which also is good as then he is actually thinking about her and trying to make her happy and if he doesn’t do it then clearly he is a selfish lover who is a rapist and deserve to be kicked out of school and yes this has happened to my friends and they hated it that is the boy not looking for an enthusiastic yes instead of just a plain jane yes.</p>

<p>I would put my e e cummings phase to a rest now. I would like to also present my take on the current situation.</p>

<p>There is absolutely no doubt the rate of rape and sexual assault has been dropping for years in the USA, just in line with violent crime. This is simply a fact, and anyone who wants to be seriously undersdtand the situation would do well to spend a couple days pulling statistics from the Justice Department Web site. That people do not do that and go for sensational magazine stories instead prove the failure of basic logical thinking, research abilities, and a clear, unbiased, independent mind in the American populace.</p>

<p>However, the media know one and only one maxim. If it bleeds, it leads. You wouldn’t know that violent crime is dropping by listening to your local TV station. You will hear of the story du jure akin to the attack of the killer bees. Because it sells. It is the bread and circus of contemporary times.</p>

<p>So what has really happened in the case of rape?</p>

<p>First the good news. The incidence has dropped by half. Whether it dropped from 4 in a thousand to 2 in a thousand one can debate. But directionally the incidence rates have halved. No criminologist or statistician would argue otherwise after seeing the data which is freely available in the Bureau of Justice web site. The credit for this drop entirely goes to rape activists which with the No is No campaign has taught an entire generation of young men to respect limits. My hat goes off to the the feminists who led this movement.</p>

<p>Next, the bad news. The incidence has dropped, but it is still not 0. However, trend analysis shows that it is likely to keep going down. Of course, crime - any crime and not just rape - will never be 0. That is am impossibility. At some point, it becomes low enough and society declares success. This, however, is anathema to a large group of rape activists, who want to root it out completely. I applaud their spirit but criticize their practical thinking abilities. We can extend life, but to aim to be immortals is a fool’s chase. </p>

<p>Anyway, be that as it may, these activists need to still draw the attention of the populace, in the face of falling incidence rates. They still need to show a crisis. The way they are achieving this is by expanding the definitino of rape. That to me is a dangerous precendent, and not for men. It is actually for women. </p>

<p>For, instead of celebrating the success achieved, they are refusing to acknowledge it, which is a recipe for certain backlash. By defining all sorts of normal mating behavior as rape they are diluting what rape really means - and what rape really means is rather ugly. If they conflate rape with sexual assault, and then define a guy flashing at them as sexual assault and therefore in turn rape, they simply lose credibility in the minds of sane, reasonable people, who natually suspect them of having an agenda. That really doesn’t help rape activists. </p>

<p>By the same token, false rape allegations, even a single one, is going to roll the wheel down the mountain. It may not be fair, but it is the way it is. There is really no need to make false allegations anyway. There are still quite a few incidences of rape and sexual assault that needs to be rooted out - and the BoJ thinks it’s close to half a million each year. </p>

<p>A homesick girl, whose parents sent her to UVA when she wanted to go to Brown, gets coerced into giving a BJ, feels lousy about herself (I do feel for her) and then lashes back perhaps at her parents by claiming a brutal rape (look what happened to me after you sent me to this godforsaken college!) and perhaps always as excuse to her won self as to why her grades were poor (she used to be a honors student in school), makes a story up. It is understandable. She doesn’t blame any individual, so she is not doing any harm either. She gets some support, some comfort, and if not for the brutal rape, any sad 18 year old should have a support group in her first year of college.</p>

<p>The things change when she is made into an icon by a rape activist journalist. The journalist completely used her. The journalist had gone campus to campus searching for a case that matches the brutality described by campus rape activists as rape culture, which is largely imagined, and failed to find a single matching case. Till Jackie.</p>

<p>Now we are all caught up in a big lie, and the group that will suffer most are true rape survivors. It does no good for rape activists to claim that the facts in Jackie’s stories are irrelevant. They are far better off just admitting that they were wrong, they placed their trust in a depressed, out-of-balance kid. They are far better of trying to solve the problem at the margin as has worked for nearly 40 years now - hey, a 50% lower incidence of rape is a cause to celebrate!</p>

<p>But this whole smokescreen of claiming that there is a rape culture without facts weakens the hands of activists. Why do that? And it is time to get Jackie into counselling, and showing her case as a prime example to other young women that they should not lie about something as serious as rape. Not for their own sake, but for the sake of other young women who do, actually, get raped.</p>

<p>Though, not at the rate of 1 in 5. The numbers are pretty clear on that.</p>

<p>And, apologies for the poor spelling, I have said my peace, so adios amigos. May there be less rapes in future, may young men and women be successful in their mating dances, and may we start to believe in official statistics, from rape incidence rates to climate change figures. Those damn research scientists employed by the Govt are usually pretty good, and they are not motivated by hot stories.</p>

<p>Peace out.</p>

<p>Oh my, taping the act to prove it was consensual? Not a good idea. Then people will be putting it on Facebook and showing it to their friends, with the defense that they just want to prove she was willing.</p>

<p>The following quotes from an article are pretty close to what i have been trying to say lately. </p>

<p>"John Foubert, a professor of higher education and student affairs at Oklahoma State University who has written seven books on prevention of rape on college campuses, said the developments do little to dispel the story’s clear impression that U.Va. could have done more at the time of the alleged attack. </p>

<p>“It wasn’t just about one incident,” he said. “It was about a culture. Nothing about that culture is any different” after the retraction. He said it won’t take the heat off Sullivan or the university. “U.Va. is still on a hotly burning seat at the moment, and that’s where they should be,” he said.</p>

<p>Foubert, who worked at U.Va. from 1998 to 2002, said the Rolling Stone piece accurately described the university’s culture and administrators’ attitudes about sexual assault. “When I read it, I thought it was a graphically written piece that was compelling, but not a bit of it surprised me,” he said.
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<p>What does he think UVA or any other college should do differently? I have been asking this forum for concrete ideas about what colleges/cops/judges can do, with no takers. I am genuinely interested in ideas.</p>

<p>I have been told that the main thing colleges and cops should do is believe the victim - alleged victim at that point, mind you - unconditionally. That’s a very humane gesture, but that’s also naive. The court can’t and won’t do that. There will be cross examination by the other party’s lawyer, so it is incumbent on the cops/colleges to fact check (just as it was incumbent on the journalist from RS, a duty she failed to perform and caused great harm to a lot of people).</p>

<p>There is really no alternative to the cops/collges checking all facts. Yes, that is ugly, but what alternative is there?</p>

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<p>Given the severity of being accused of rape and the impact on one’s life, the question is which is smarter - the taping or hoping that one does not get accused because a female decides to change her mind after the fact? </p>

<p>And that is the issue that so many redefinitions and impossible-to-follow rules cause - smart men will decide to be in front of the cart instead of behind it, because it is only until after one is accused does one know if the female was on the up and up in some situations, i.e., situations where the male thought it was consensual.</p>

<p>I am not advocating taping at all and actually would advise against it, but what I do get is that given the current atmosphere a smart guy would make sure he has proof, if a female decides otherwise after she told him something else and did something else that clearly does not constitute rape, but she accuses him as much. Kind of hard to argue with a male who decides that if his rights are going to be denied in a tribunal, then be ready with all the proof he can ahead of time. </p>

<p>@SoWhatDoYouDoHuh‌, your posts are interesting. Although, you do need to pause when you are talking so it is easier for me to understand you.</p>

<p>^^ no idea, but here is a link to the entire story. I would hazard a guess that one thing would be to report rapes instead of cover them up, and another would be to expel students for rape instead of just slapping them on the wrist.</p>

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<p><a href=“http://bwog.com/2014/01/23/accessible-prompt-and-equitable-an-examination-of-sexual-assault-at-columbia/”>http://bwog.com/2014/01/23/accessible-prompt-and-equitable-an-examination-of-sexual-assault-at-columbia/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Sara (Emma) is the Columbia U rape victim who dragged her mattress around for months. For all the ignorant posts about her “PR” stunt… it was not just about her rapist going free, it was about the horribly incompetent investigation done by Columbia, and by the NYPD.</p>

<p>Here is just some of her treatment by the police:</p>

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<p>No, but when this happens in your room, it IS the definition of rape, even if you invited the guy there, even if he had been your boy/friend. </p>

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<p><a href=“Why college rape victims don’t go to the police”>http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/articles/2014/5/19/why-college-rapevictimsdonatgotothepolice.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>That’s raped, and then raped again by the “justice” procedure at Columbia. She wasn’t allowed to present evidence that he had had other complaints against him. When she was able to present that evidence later, it was dismissed. Then, he was found “responsible” in a third incidence, but that was later dismissed. </p>

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<p>I’m surprised she only hauled a mattress around. I would have hauled a flaming mattress and thrown it through that stupid Dean’s office window. But that’s just a fantasy. In reality, rape victims rarely get angry this early in the healing process. They get depressed, withdrawn, sometimes suicidal, and their grades suffer terribly. And then, ignorant fools dismiss them as publicity seeking PR fiends because it comforts their fears somehow. </p>

<p>Well, I am 100% in favor of all rapes being reported to the cops, but the college can’t do that against the wishes of the alleged victim. I do agree that all victims should immediately go to a hospital, get a rape kit done, and call the cops. But the cops are going to grill her. That’s just reality. No way around it, as the cops have to find evidence that satisfies the DA, and the DA has to be comfortable that (s)he has a case. No way to do that other than fact finding. As much as believing the victim no matter what sounds humane, it’s impractical. </p>

<p>Students <em>convicted</em> of rape in court of law will be going to jail, so the college doesn’t really have to expel them. :slight_smile: What rape activists want is students <em>accused</em> of rape getting kicked out. It will happen for poor and may be middle class kids, but not for rich kids who will immediately lawyer up. So why not let the courts do their thing? Why just punish the middle and lower SES kids?</p>

<p>Greenwitch, if you were the investigating NYPD officer, how would you build a case for Sara? A case that a DA would be willing to take to court because there would be a good chance of winning? It was a pure case of she said he said. I don’t know what happened, neither do you, nor does the judge and jury, so as a cop what would you do?</p>

<p>I am really asking this seriously, because everyone is disgusted at the system, but no one can say what’s a practical way to prevail in court. There was no rape kit. She didn’t go to the hpospital immediately. So what do you do now?</p>

<p>“expel students for rape instead of just slapping them on the wrist.”</p>

<p>That would be a good place to start. I don’t agree with a single-sanction discipline system, but if you’re going to enforce it with cheaters, you better do it with rapists.</p>

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<p>Not sure you are even on the same page as this person who said the quotes. You are asking people who believe in the rape culture, which you say really does not exist (a smokescreen) and the who also believe in the 1 in 5 rape stat, which has been disproved every which way from Sunday. </p>

<p>I venture the solutions he provides would be nothing approaching practical for the actual stats and would involve fixing a culture you say does not actually exist.</p>

<p>There might be something useful in the link provided though. </p>