All UVa frats on suspension

<p>Whenever someone invades your personal space, does that fall under the new definition of sexual assault? I must have been sexually assaulted then as young as 8 when a boy I had a crush on grabbed my shoulders and planted a kiss on my cheek. I grew wings and flew to heaven so that must have been some sort of PTSD. </p>

<p>What about the singers and actors who are probed, poked by fans in pursuit of a selfie or autograph, do the singers and actors have grounds to charge the fans with sexual assault?</p>

<p>And let’s say I’m a single woman and I’m not in the mood for sex but I told my bf go ahead but while he was doing it I was texting the entire time, looking at Instagram, fb. That means I wasn’t saying yes the entire time. Do I have grounds to file sexual assault later?</p>

<p>OK guys, I am confused here. In which college is a student <em>convicted of rape by a court</em> not expelled as he heads off to jail? What’s up with beating this strawman to death?</p>

<p>I think it is important to learn whether Jackie’s story is all or partly false. To learn whether she did, in fact, suffer traumatic sexual assault at the Phi Psi house on September 28, 2012, or at any other place at any other time. “Something must have happened” is misleadingly open ended conclusion. For the sake of everyone, including Jackie, the truth needs to come out.</p>

<p>Does Jackie deserve privacy and to be left alone? I think at this point, unfortunately, no. She told her story to RS, the WaPo, to multiple fellow students. She became a sexual assault advocate on the credibility of her personal experience. She may have told the same story to the Dean of Sexual Misconduct. She may have told the same story to her parents. She disseminated her accusations widely and repeatedly, and these accusations have affected many other people. She needs to take responsibility for her statements and answer more questions from the police, the school – maybe even the press.</p>

<p>Why is it important to learn the truth? The reputation of the fraternity and its members is one issue, but more importantly, I think the major issue is the reputation of UVA’s Dean of Sexual Misconduct and by extension the administration and the culture of the school as a whole. </p>

<p>In the RS article Jackie claimed that she told Dean Eramo what happened to her that night – that she was raped and assaulted by seven fellow students organized and encouraged by two others as part of a fraternity ritual – and that Eramo’s reaction was do to nothing, except to thank her for sharing. Presumably Eramo notified UVA’s administration of the attack and they also chose to take no action. They saw no threat to public safety.</p>

<p>This is a terrible and shocking indictment on the competence and morality – not to mention common sense – of the UVA administration. Premeditated, institutionalized gang rape is on a different level from he said/she said date rape situations. If Jackie’s story is factual these men need to go to prison for a long time. Their lives deserve to be ruined.</p>

<p>Surely, Dean Eramo and the UVA administration would not have an accusation on this level of seriousness go unchecked. They may have used poor judgment in some other cases, but covering up this crime makes them in effect co-conspirators in a horrendous attack that could easily happen again.</p>

<p>So there are two possibilities: either Jackie told Eramo the same story that was described in the RS article, and UVA acted negligently. Or Jackie didn’t tell Eramo the same story that she told RS and UVA is being falsely accused of covering up or ignoring a crime. To me it’s important that we find out which it is.</p>

<p>This is not a denial that rape happens or an apology for sexual assault. In fact, it’s just the opposite, Jackie has by the credentials of her own experience become an advocate for victims of sexual account, even their spokesperson. If she embellished or fabricated her story – for whatever reasons – then she harms the credibility of all victims. I believe that most victims tell the truth and I want their attackers punished. In order to move forward at UVA, this specific story needs to come into the daylight.</p>

<p>I believe that Jackie was manipulated and victimized by Rolling Stone, and that she may well be suffering from sexual trauma, but until what really happened to her is understood she’s caught in a maelstrom lies. In the meantime, UVA is a victim too.</p>

<p>SWDYDH - If there was a rape kit and she had gone to the hospital immediately, he could have still claimed it was all consensual. I agree that a rape kit should help, but it is not enough.</p>

<p>As for the police, they just were unprofessional and bordering on offensive. They seemed intent on driving away victims unless they presented with a “perfect” case. If you were the police wouldn’t you be interested to hear of a potential serial predator at large? Wouldn’t you take down all the information you could, very carefully, even if the complaining victim didn’t have much chance of convicting the predator? </p>

<p>awcntdb, I don’t see a link. I think there is no rape culture, as otherwise the incidence of rape would be far higher than the 2 in 1000 statistics reported by the Bureau of Justice. Now if rape culture is something else that has nothing to do with the actual commission of an act that meets the legal definition of rape, which by the way is a felony and not a misdemeanor, then may be there is a rape culture, but to me the justice system doesn’t have to worry about that. The Justice department is not there to change attitudes and make men less aggressive. It is there to enforce the law as passed by the legislature and in accordance with judicial precedence.</p>

<p>I get confused in these discussions. One moment we are talking about an actual physical act of rape. Another moment we are talking about someone being raped in the media. The two are not the same, not even close.</p>

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<p>According to the CDC survey, yes.</p>

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<p>According to anything other than Enthusiastic Yes is rape, yes.</p>

<p>See, if we allow this silliness to compound just to prove that there is a rape culture, the real horrible act that is forced, violent rape gets completely diluted. And I think that does women no good.</p>

<p>Why are the women here so hesitant to acknowledge that since the 70s when the term rape culture was first coined, the feminist movement have successfully lowered incidence of rape by 50%? I am a feminist and I was doing cartwheels when I was looking up the stats and saw that.</p>

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<p>The answer is none. </p>

<p>The straw man drives the agenda that the 1 in 5 stat is factual and that there is a thriving and even growing rape culture. That is the basis of many posters position on here.</p>

<p>But the key is in the language used. Note that people say expelled FOR rape, not convicted of rape and not even found guilty of rape. An accusation by a female is good enough for many on here to get a male suspended and even expelled, even if there is not proof of anything. It is what it is on CC.</p>

<p>I read the post and never noticed the link was not there. See post #1194, it states there is a link, but guess it was never added to the post. </p>

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<p>I agree, but you simply emphasize my own point. This is a no-win case for the cops to file. There is no evidence to go by.</p>

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<p>Trouble is, there are many potential serial predators, but only a few winnable cases. Ideally, I would want the cops to have infinite resources and a magic wand to recreate the crime scene ala Roshomon (but even that was hazy). In reality, I know that to even dream of that is unrealistic. Moreever, there is no hard evidence. Why should the cops believe this young woman? Young men are not saints, but young women lie too, especially about ex’es. </p>

<p>Look, I am not saying that she is lying. I am saying that there is no evidence for me or you or anyone to make a decision either way - this is a classic he said she said. What’s the point chasing this case then when there is absolutely no chance of getting the potential serial predator?</p>

<p>If you were the judge in this case and it was brought in front of you, and you were dutybound to act only on absolute evidence, how would you decide?</p>

<p>The students expelled by UVA for cheating weren’t convicted in a court of law. They weren’t even found civilly liable in a court of law. The school conducted its own inquiry, decided the student committed the act, and expelled the student. Yet in the past, it has found to its own satisfaction that a student raped and yet didn’t expel him. That doesn’t make sense.</p>

<p>@awcntdb wrote that he didn’t see a link. Correct. </p>

<p>Oops, sorry. Here is the link</p>

<p><a href=“Rolling Stone retraction complicates fraught rape story”>http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/07/rolling-stone-retraction-uva/20060789/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>See, if we now define rape culture as the inability to get a boy thrown out of school just be accusing him of rape, then there likely <em>is</em> a rape culture. And we get our self-fulfilling prophecy, that the collegs must be biased against women, as they are not believing female rape victims (alleged) at face value.</p>

<p>The sad thing is it does get boys from low SES thrown out, and pobably some middle class boys too. The whole establishment in this country is biased against the poor. It’s all a depressing mess. </p>

<p>The only silver lining I see is this - incidence of rape has been going down and is now half of what it was 40 years back. Not sure if no one here celebrates it.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/article/2014/dec/07/light-uva-story-pundits-ask-are-1-5-college-women-/”>http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/article/2014/dec/07/light-uva-story-pundits-ask-are-1-5-college-women-/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>SWDYDH - it sound to me like it’s all he said/she said to you (and therefore unworthy of any effort towards investigation or prosecution) unless there are eyewitness to the rape - oh wait, they might be wrong too. Maybe it’s never good enough? </p>

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<p>Actually, it does. Cheating is not a crime. It’s about breaking internal rules of the school. The school is, after all, the ultimate arbiter of such self-made rules.</p>

<p>However, rape has a legal meaning. I suspect the boy who was found guilty got a lawyer and threatened to sue, and the school felt that it didn’t have a case if the legal definition of rape is used, or that they felt they had a weak case that would fall apart during cross examination. </p>

<p>What’s the SES of the boy? If he was poor I would suspect UVA would have no problem hanging him out to dry. What I don’t get is this, if there is indeed a cut and dry case for conviction, why didn’t the victim take the case to court and file charges?</p>

<p>Was it rape or sexual assault? These are not the same thing and are often used interchangeably. Now, my daughter tells me the people who don’t know one from the other are stupid but I’m pretty convinced there are way too many stupid people and it’s causing big problems. Of course, I could always be wrong.</p>

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<p>Well there is rapekit, and DNA, and medical proof of force, that’s why acting fast is so important. But yes, the boy could have said that they were playing consensual BDSM games. I am not a lawyer, but what I have been told by my criminal lawyer friends is this - it’s hard to prove a rape case, period, especially if the defendent has the money to get a good lawyer.</p>

<p>Look, don’t shoot the messenger. Suggest practical ways to solve the problem here. I am not a rape apologist. I agree that rape absolutely exists. Frankly, I even believe that the whole concept of serial rapists is somewhat dated, and with the amount of hard core porn kids watch these days for free on the internet, their brains-at-large are likely getting wired a bit funny. </p>

<p>But that’s neither here nor there. I am asking what the courts can do. What would you do if you were the cop? How would you build the case?</p>

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<p>See the problem with trying to bump up rape incidence stats? This is what the CDC survey does, as I have been alluding to before. It makes the survey look stupid.</p>

<p>People are also thrown out of UVa for stealing. Stealing is a crime.</p>

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<p>Yeah, there is no solution offered here. Just that UVA is doing something wrong. That doesn’t help.</p>