All UVa frats on suspension

Parents Forum
1221

<p>@awcntdb wrote: “OK guys, I am confused here. In which college is a student <em>convicted of rape by a court</em> not expelled as he heads off to jail? What’s up with beating this strawman to death?”</p>

<p>I don’t know the answer to that, but nobody ever said “convicted of rape by a court”. I, personally, think I used the term “found guilty of rape by the SMB”, or something similar. I don’t believe I ever said “by a court”.</p>

<p>I searched for quite a while and could not find a single case of a UVA student ever being tried in Charlottesville for rape (other than Liz Securro’s rapist who admitted the rape decades later). I certainly didn’t parse through all 983k hits that google returned, and obviously could have missed some, but I would love to know the answer to the question of how many have even been tried for rape (as well as how many were convicted). </p>

<p>What we do know is that there have been probably hundreds of women who have claimed rape or sexual assault (I don’t think we know the breakdown of each kind). Btw- I say hundreds because it is something like dozens of cases per year on average that are brought before the Sexual Misconduct Board (I just don’t remember the exact number). </p>

<p>Anyway, of those hundreds only 14 were every found guilty and not a single one was ever expelled. </p>

<p>@awcntdb also wrote: “An accusation by a female is good enough for many on here to get a male suspended and even expelled, even if there is not proof of anything. It is what it is on CC.”</p>

<p>I don’t know about others, but that certainly isn’t my view. However, I wholeheartedly believe that in the cases where there was enough evidence to find someone guilty at the SMB (again, only 14 of hundreds) that they should be expelled. </p>

1222

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<p>Look, this is a pointless argument. We have a perfectly fine criminal justice system, so why not just use it? If someone is convicted of rape they will go to jail, and automatically thrown out of college. What am I missing here? Why is there such a reluctance to go to court?</p>

1223

<p>Anyway, of those hundreds only 14 were every found guilty and not a single one was ever expelled.</p>

<p>What were they found guilty of? Was it rape or some lesser sort of sexual assault or misconduct thing? And, yes, if it was actually criminal rape the next question is why not report it and pursue real justice?</p>

1224

<p>"If someone is convicted of rape they will go to jail, and automatically thrown out of college. "</p>

<p>It’s not automatic that those convicted are jailed, and it’s not automatic that those who go to jail are expelled.</p>

<p>Stealing and rape are violations of the university code of conduct as WELL as crimes. Crimes have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Conduct violations don’t. If the university is 75% sure someone stole from a classmate, they’ll expel that student, but 75% sure is not beyond a reasonable doubt, so an equally confident jury or judge should not convict.</p>

1225

<p>@marie1234 wrote: “Was it rape or sexual assault? These are not the same thing and are often used interchangeably.”</p>

<p>That is part of the problem. Some entities, as well as some states (even countries), have removed rape from the language in their laws and substituted sexual assault. I believe it was on the FBI web page where I saw that rape is now considered “the penetration of the <insert the=”" 3="" main="" orifices=""> by any body part of an assailant". </insert></p>

1226

<p>I’m astounded that Rich Lowry, or anyone else, doesn’t think forced kissing is sexual assault. Of course it’s sexual assault!</p>

1227

<p>TV4caster Why do you think none of these cases went to court? Cops biased, or cases too weak? I will tell you this, I am a hard core numbers guy, and I believe the Bureau of Justice statistics. That would indicate less then two rapes (not sexual misconduct, mind you, but rape as in the legal BoJ definition of rape) per year at UVA. Now, rape cases are notoriously hard to win. So, let’s say there is only one case per year that the cops could have brought to the court with a fair shot of winning. </p>

<p>That sounds like the right stats to me, one clear cut case of rape per year in UVA (remember, according to MA medical schools, there are 4 per year in all of MA for college kids).</p>

<p>Given this super low incidence I am extremely nervous about some Dean playing judge jury and executioner. But know what, so be it, so I agree that those 14 should have been expelled. It’s a low enough number anyway and not far from my calculations, so these kids probably did meet the clear cut case of rape.</p>

1228

<p>SWDYDH - here’s something about how difficult it is to prosecute, ironically from the UVA school of law!</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2001_02/zug.htm”>http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2001_02/zug.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>And here is something (very long) about proper police procedures. Hint, it does not recommend being sarcastic and dismissive with victims. On the contrary - “interviewing victims is a skill that takes years to master: basic police training should provide a solid foundation. Successful interviews uncover important information - while avoiding re-victimization” </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.osce.org/secretariat/109933?download=true”>http://www.osce.org/secretariat/109933?download=true&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

1229

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<p>The rape culture, as it turns out, really is now anything that advocates think limits the implementation of what they want. Even you are part of problem, as per their definition. It took while for me to learn this, but think I got now.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>You are contributing and supporting the rape culture by denying the fact that the 1 in 5 stat is true, thereby giving rape apologists an excuse to not take even stronger action to lower the 20% rape number. (Yes, I know, kind of hard to clean up something correctly if it does not exist the way you define it in the first place, but that is of no concern on CC) The 1 in 5 stat rape is the go to mantra.</p></li>
<li><p>You are contributing to the rape culture by making accusers submit to police questions and fact-finding inquiries. </p></li>
<li><p>You are contributing to the rape culture by being outwardly offensive by not believing female accusers outright. It is part of the rape culture to not just take the accusers word as is.</p></li>
<li><p>You are contributing to the rape culture by allowing the lawyer or representative for the accused to question the accuser at a college tribunal. No direct questioning of the accuser is allowed, as it makes females less likely to come forward.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I could go on, but you get the point. Anything, even necessary, practical things, are now called part of the rape culture when they are deemed inconvenient for whatever reason.</p>

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<p>But it’s not rape. If it were, selling kisses for charity would be prostitution. Look, seriously, why dilute a real horrible thing, rape, just to be able to bump the numbers up and be able to claim that 1 in 5 are rape.</p>

<p>People don’t say that 1 in 500 are rape, and then there are lots of sexual assults, now do they?</p>

1231

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<p>Exactly. Ass grabbing, however uncouth, impolite, and frankly, something only miserable lumpens do to strangers, is still not rape.</p>

1232

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<p>OK, so let’s expel those kids found guilty of rape in the criminal justice system. Deal?</p>

1233

<p>@awcntdb wrote: "The rape culture, as it turns out, really is now anything that advocates think limits the implementation of wheat they want. Even you are part of problem. It took while for me to learn this, but think I got now.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>You are contributing and supporting the rape culture by denying the fact that the 1 in 5 stat is true, thereby giving rape apologists an excuse to not take action to be taken to lower the 20% rape number. (Yes, i know, kind of hard to clean up something correctly if it does not exist the way you define it in the first place, but that is of no concern on CC) The 1 in 5 stat rape is the go to mantra.</p></li>
<li><p>You are contributing to the rape culture by making accusers submit to police questions and fact-finding inquiries.</p></li>
<li><p>You are contributing to the rape culture by being outwardly offensive by not believing female accusers outright. It is part of the rape culture to not just take the accusers word as is.</p></li>
<li><p>You are contributing to the rape culture by allowing the lawyer for the accused question the accuser at a college tribunal. No direct questioning of the accuser, as it makes females less likely to come forward.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I could go on, but you get the point. Anything, even necessary, practical things, are now called part of the rape culture when they are deemed inconvenient for whatever reason."</p>

<p>Where do you get this stuff? Nobody that I can remember has ever used any of those things that you listed as an example of a “rape culture” at UVA. </p>

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<p>Look, I am not a cop worshipper. Far from it really. I always have had a very healthy sense of disrespect for any authority, especially cops. Most cops act like idiots, too. So I am all for cops behaving in a civil manner. If that’s your main recommendation when it comes to prosecuting rape, I am all for it! </p>

<p>But do you understand that there is no way to avoid fact finding, which would be very invasive, and the cops just can’t believe the alleged victim at face value because the judge won’t, the opposing attorney won’t, and hence the DA won’t as (s)he wouldn’t want to look like an idiot in court?</p>

<p>That’s all I am saying really. I totally get that the process is not easy. But I can’t quite figure out how to make it any easier. So help me here.</p>

1235

<p>I have noticed one think that is slowly happening. Some TV people are now using the term sexually assault and rape when saying the 1 in 5 stat. I think even they realized how mathematically crazy it sounded. But even two days ago, still, I heard the 1 in 5 are raped in college on CNN. It was a guest and the host diid not correct and just left it out there. </p>

1236

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<p>Yeah see that may feel righteous but that won’t lower incidence of rape. The only thing that lowered incidence of rape was teaching the young boys that No means No, and teaching the young girls to fight back and report to cops. And that will keep lowering incidence of rape going forward, too.</p>

1237

<p>There were surveys in 1985, 2000, and 2007 that came up with the 1 in 5 number. Of course there will be people who pick apart any statistic. And sometimes statistics seem to be in conflict. Still, I would look closely at those statistics before I would believe some political pundit who likes to hear themself talk.</p>

<p>Also, I’m not a fan of euphemistic phrases. Rape is rape. But in the old days the legal definition only included vaginal rape of a woman by a man. Other forced sex acts were not covered but eventually the laws changed. Men being raped was not covered but eventually the laws changed. Marital rape was a big change and many people at the time (mid 1970’s?) thought it was not legally possible. But laws changed and hopefully attitudes have too. I wonder about that though when I see the many comments along the line of “but she started kissing him and then wanted to stop”. </p>

<p>Colleges and universities seem particularly squeamish about using the word rape. They don’t want to acknowledge that it happens between students. They aren’t good about adjudicating it and they know it. They rename it “intimate partner violence” or “non-consensual sex”. They are muddying the waters and it doesn’t help. </p>

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<p>I was of the impression that UVa’s honor board was student run. (And based on a few friends who were grads &" jurists" in the Honor board, there is plenty of pressure to not convict the right folks, i.e., friends…</p>

<p><a href=“C-VILLE Weekly | UVA grapples with how to reform its embattled Honor Code”>C-VILLE Weekly | UVA grapples with how to reform its embattled Honor Code;

1239

<p>@sowhatdoyoudohuh wrote: “But it’s not rape. If it were, selling kisses for charity would be prostitution. Look, seriously, why dilute a real horrible thing, rape, just to be able to bump the numbers up and be able to claim that 1 in 5 are rape.” </p>

<p>I have no idea if you are a man or a woman, but I doubt if someone used their fist to penetrate one of your private orifices that you would quibble that you were not raped just because they didn’t use their Johnson. </p>

<p>Isn’t the FBI part of the DOJ? I ask because the numbers you say the DOJ claim is nowhere near the numbers that the FBI claim. </p>

<p>As for your question about why cases don’t go to court in C’ville: I would say there are many reasons, including those you named. Some were he said/she said; some were cops being dismissive; some were the victims being afraid. </p>

<p>I too am a hard core numbers guy and there is no way that there is just 1 rape case per year at UVA if you use the DOJ definition there is no way that there aren’t many rape cases per years. I would venture to guess dozens??</p>

<p>From the DOJ website:</p>

<p>The new definition is:</p>

<p>“The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” </p>

<p>For the first time ever, the new definition includes any gender of victim and perpetrator, not just women being raped by men. It also recognizes that rape with an object can be as traumatic as penile/vaginal rape. This definition also includes instances in which the victim is unable to give consent because of temporary or permanent mental or physical incapacity. </p>

<p>Furthermore, because many rapes are facilitated by drugs or alcohol, the new definition recognizes that a victim can be incapacitated and thus unable to consent because of ingestion of drugs or alcohol. Similarly, a victim may be legally incapable of consent because of age. The ability of the victim to give consent must be determined in accordance with individual state statutes. Physical resistance is not required on the part of the victim to demonstrate lack of consent."</p>

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<p>Now you saying that the term rape culture is college specific and is defined differently for each university and college? You have got to be kidding me. What nonsense.</p>

<p>I am talking about the use of the rape culture term in general in many threads on CC over many a months covering many issues and topics. </p>

<p>I suggest you search the forum and see the myriad of things and actions that have been called part of the rape culture on CC. </p>