Bay, let’s say you’re right (which you’re not), and that so-called “hunting” (actually, slaughter) is no threat whatsoever to the lion population.
Can you explain to me why it is enjoyable to cause – and then to watch – the death of something beautiful and rare?
Yes, lions are bred and raised to be targets of hunts. I mentioned this way back. That is exactly why sport hunting is not a threat to extinction, it actually incentivizes African citizens to breed them and protect them, because it adds hugely to their economy.
I could never kill a lion (unless he was about to kill me or someone around me), but at least I understand what is going on in Africa and why.
Lasma,
I think the desire to hunt is in the DNA of some people, especially males. And that makes perfect sense to me. The U.S. is slowly culling out any benefit to that instinct. I expect all wildlife hunting to become illegal soon.
Walter Palmer to face extradition?
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/cecil-lion-zimbabwe-seeks-extradition-us-dentist-walter-palmer-1513500
Many years ago, DH and I lived in Kenya for his job and we stayed in one safari park that would provide guests with Maasai guards carrying long spears to walk them to the outdoor toilets at night … just in case. As you were going to sleep in tents you could hear lions roaring not far away. It was exhilarating and terrifying at the same time.
In the parks and preserves where the rangers locate the animals and radio each other so tourists will see what they came for, hunting is not allowed and those who break the laws are scumbag poachers.
I have to wonder if the reason that the owner of the land next to Hwange National Park was not granted a permit for hunting lions on his land is because of its proximity to the park — sounds to me like the government wanted to extend the no-hunting-lions protection of the national park to the land nearby. For this very reason. Because it would be too likely that unscrupulous hunters would lure animals to the adjacent private land…and despite the lack of permit it happened anyway. I guess that much money is too much of a temptation for the locals.
Theo, the Zimbabwean hunter charged with poaching, has started talking and just from what I overheard, Palmer was along for the ride and participated in baiting the animal out of the protected area. He got upset when he found the collar and tried to hide it in a tree (but still took the head of course). Then, he asked if it was possible to hunt for an elephant before he went home. 
I wasn’t commenting about the legality of shooting a lion from a vehicle. I just said it would be easy to do. The lions just SIT there, looking at you.
@jazzy mom, our camp had no fences around it. The night we saw the lion kill, we heard the lions roaring right outside our hut. We told the ranger about them the next morning. He said, “Oh, they just SOUNDED close. They would not have abandoned their kill.” So then we drove to the site of the kill, and lo and behold, the lions weren’t there! The ranger thought they left because they heard rival lions nearby. Yikes.
I do not even understand the deduction that there must be something automatically negative if one cannot discuss hobbies with clients. That just seems smart operating business decorum to me, as people who would not like what you do can often act like bullies and lower class fools when they find out why you do. Not worth the confrontation.
Statistically, doctors, in general, are richer than their clients, and I could see it coming off as not kosher discussing extravagant hobbies with their patients. If I were a practicing doc, I would definitely avoid.
I oft avoid mentioning my enjoyable gas-guzzling hobbies on the ground at 200+ mph and in the air at 510 knots, unless seen or asked directly. Why? Because people are so stupid sensitive today about all sorts of things that it just is not worth it unless you know them extremely well in a more friendly way.
But, even when friendly, still need to understand where people are attitudinally, even if stupid. People are so sensitive about inequity nonsense and the ignorance that we are running out of oil, as we find more each year. When younger, my kids talking about their weekends in kindergarten and first grade were once accused by a few parents of showing off to the other kids. I remember thinking, “Hey, idiots they are 5 and 6 years-old. They are just sharing their lives with their classmates.” You never know how losers react, and you do not they are losers until they react, and then it is too late.
While I think this is possible, I find it hard to believe that a wealthy guy with Palmer’s hunting experience would contract with a lion hunting outfit that is not legitimate. It makes no sense to me that he would do that. These experienced hunters know exactly where to go and who to hire for the most successful hunts.
This is why I think we should withhold judgment about whether this was really a mistake or not. (This is a separate judgment from how one feels about killing lions at all.)
If Palmer is extradited to Zimbabwe and receives a fair trial, I think that is ideal. If he does not receive a fair trial and is sentenced, I think Zimbabwe can kiss its tourist hunting revenue good-bye.
I have friends leaving tomorrow for 3 weeks in Africa and Zimbabwe and the preserve where Cecil was is on their itinerary. They are so sad about what happened and also commented that it’s not a good time to be an American traveling to Zimbabwe. Not that they think anything is going to happen to them - just that Palmer’s actions put a black cloud over all of us.
Having it in the DNA is not an good enough excuse. To actually enjoy killing something is beyond twisted. IMO.
It’s interesting how different people can read the same articles and understand them differently. My “take” wasn’t that the landowner “never” got to allow hunters to hunt lion on his land, but rather that the government sets a quota for the number of aminals of each species that can be caught on his land in a given year. As I understood it, the landowner didn’t have the right to have a lion killed on his land during 2015. So, as I understood it, even if Dr. Palmer had a permit to hunt lion during the trip, he could only hunt them on land where the owner’s 2015 quota included a lion and that quota hadn’t been exhausted by previous kills.
I think Dr. Palmer’s problem is that of the little boy who called wolf. It Dr. Palmer hadn’t been previously convicted of lying about where he killed a bear, I think most people would be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. But, knowing that he has been convicted for doing something similar in the past and lying about it, people find his claim that he didn’t know this was illegal less thn credible.
Palmer’s refusal (so far) to talk to U.S. Fish & Wildlife authorities puts the lie to his earlier statement that he would “assist [authorities in Zimbabwe and the U.S.] . . . in any inquiries they may have.” They’ve repeatedly called both his work and home numbers, bombarded him with e-mails, repeatedly knocked on the door of both his office and his home, and contacted the p.r. firm that issued Palmer’s only public statement on the matter to date, only to be met with stone silence. Yesterday Fish & Wildlife put out a public call for Palmer or his representative (presumably his lawyer) to contact them; that call has been prominently communicated through both broadcast and print media in Minnesota (banner headline, front page above the fold in the StarTribune, Minnesota’s largest daily newspaper) and around the nation. Nearly 24 hours later, stone silence.
Palmer isn’t obligated to talk to Fish & Wildlife, of course. He has a constitutional right to remain silent. It’s called the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination, and the law can’t presume his guilt from his silence. But to my way of thinking, if he’s truly innocent—if, as he claimed in his earlier statement, he truly believed he was engaged in a legal hunt—then he would have absolutely no reason NOT to talk to Fish & Wildlife investigators. It would be in his interest to get all the facts out, to have his side of the story told before the authorities here and in Zimbabwe reach their own conclusions about what happened, and whether Palmer did anything unlawful under either U.S. law or Zimbabwean law.
Officials in Zimbabwe are apparently considering charging Palmer with poaching, a much more serious offense than that faced by his local guide (failure to stop an illegal hunt). That suggests they think the illegal kill was Palmer’s idea, and the local guide only went along with it. It’s not surprising they would think that, given that so far they’ve been unable to talk to Palmer; it would certainly be in the interest of the local guide to claim Palmer was the mastermind and the local guide merely a reluctant accomplice. If Palmer cooperated with the authorities by speaking to Fish & Wildlife, and if they believed him, Palmer would neither face criminal charges here nor be subject to extradition, which Zimbabwe is now requesting (at least informally at the ministerial level, though apparently a formal extradition request has not yet been filed). The fact that he isn’t cooperating in Fish & Wildlife’s investigation only raises the suspicion that Palmer knew he was engaging in an illegal hunt, and he doesn’t want to incriminate himself. Nor, probably, does he want to lie to Fish & Wildlife again, because he was convicted of that once before, when he poached a black bear in Wisconsin and then lied to Fish & Wildlife officers about it.
The bribery issue won’t go away, either. The head of Zimbabwe’s safari industry association said Thursday “there had to be” bribes, because the hunting party were apparently carrying documents that were “illegal and fraudulently obtained” to carry out the hunt— presumably, a phony permit to kill a lion. Bribery of foreign officials by a U.S. citizen is a much more serious offense under U.S. law than violation of the Lacey Act which prohibits trafficking in animals unlawfully obtained in their country of origin. If bribes were paid, the money had to come from Palmer, either directly or out of the funds he had paid his guide for the hunt; the question then would be, what did Palmer know, and when did he know it? Bribery would also be an offense that could make Palmer subject to extradition, and once again, if he was innocent, it would be in his interest to get the facts on the table and his side of the story told before Fish & Wildlife, the Justice Department, and Zimbabwean prosecutors and courts reach their own conclusions. Silence casts a pall of suspicion.
U.S. Fish and Wildlife has announced on Twitter that a representative of Palmer’s contacted them late Thursday.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/31/world/zimbabwe-cecil-lion-dentist/index.html
I’ve learned this week that in big-game hunting circles, there’s something known as “The Big Five.” Evidently the grotesque holy grail of slaughtering-for-fun in Africa is to be able to take home and display for all your bloodthirsty friends the following: a rhino, an elephant, a water buffalo, a leopard, and a lion.
Let’s start with what we know: First, that Dr. Scumbag’s “hunting experience” includes slaughtering animals inside areas where he knew they were protected. Second, that he knows this can get him in trouble, so it’s essential to insist that he believed that Cecil’s slaughter was legal. Third, that he is perfectly willing to lie about his slaughtering activities. Fourth, that he already has all the common easy-to-get animals (there is a list of his previous slaughters on line if you’d like to verify this), and that the next step is to join the Big Five club. Fifth, a fair hunt of the Big Five is difficult, and success is far from guaranteed. For this reason, as you yourself said, “In the case of African big game hunts like this one, the hunts have to be set up to maximize the chances that the animal will be found and killed.” Sixth, Dr. Scumbag – not being overly concerned about integrity in his dealings with either humans or animals – would not raise much objection to an unfair and illegal slaughter of a magnificent lion to add to his Big Five matched set. (See #1, #2 and #3.)
So, no, I’m not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
The Big Five is a very commonly known phrase. You can get Big Five trinkets all over the place in So Africa, including the airport.
^Cape buffalo, not water buffalo …
Cape buffalo.
Just so everyone is aware, this is big business for the country of Zimbabwe (and other African countries). They charge huge fees for the license/permit to hunt these animals.
I’m not defending this guy, but the government(s) also has/have some responsibility in the hunting of African trophy game.
Why would Palmer be so upset to find the radio collar? Why would he try to hide it in a tree? The only explanation that comes to mind is that he knew he had killed the lion illegally, and the fact that it was collared would make it easier to discover the crime and track the criminals. Which is, apparently, what happened. Perhaps someone has a more benign explanation? (I very much doubt that he was such a fan of university research that he was upset that he had disrupted someone’s data gathering, because if that was the case, his response likely would have been to try to locate the researcher, return the collar, and apologize).
Except, of course, that we know Palmer had intentionally poached big game in the past, when he killed a black bear in Wisconsin 40 miles from where it was legal to hunt them, then transported the carcass back to the legal hunting zone, falsely reported that he had killed it there, and lied to Fish & Wildlife officers about what had happened. Does it make any sense to you that a wealthy and experienced big game hunter would do that? I’m not a hunter, but I grew up in an area where hunting, including hunting for black bear, was common. What I’ve always heard is that killing a black bear is pretty easy once you find them; they’re neither as skittish nor as fleet-footed as deer, and they’re much larger than most other game animals in Wisconsin, so it’s hard to miss. The challenge is finding one. Experienced hunters know the best places to look, and if they find “sign”–tracks, droppings, claw marks on trees, piles of half-eaten wild apples or berries, or whatever–they can often track one and catch up to it. But sometimes even the best hunters can go an entire season without ever coming across a bear. Palmer apparently didn’t find one in the area where he had a license to hunt, but he did find one 40 miles away, and he shot and killed it. Why? Well, I suppose because it was convenient, and because adding a black bear to his lifetime “kill list” was apparently more important to him than observing the requirements of the law.
So maybe he contracted with people who were willing to aid and abet his poaching because the African lion was the last iconic African big game species still missing from his “kill list”; and because as a big game hunter he was aware that the Fish & Wildlife Service might very well (and probably will) list the African lion as “threatened” under the Endangered Species Act in October and at the same time will issue a protective rule that will make it much more difficult to bring lion “trophies” into the United States, so the window might be closing on his ability to do so; and possibly because permits to kill lions are scarce, and possibly scarcer this year than ever precisely because of the pending ESA listing, so that other big game hunters had already snapped up all the available permits (I read just this morning that 60% of all the African lions killed are killed by U.S. citizens). If all that was the case, then Palmer might have just thought it more convenient to go get his lion without a legal permit, especially if he could use forged documents, perhaps obtained through bribery, to help get the prized head out of the country, to hang on the wall in his trophy room. It wouldn’t be the first time Palmer intentionally broke the law to get his trophy, and I’m sure he wouldn’t be the first wealthy and experienced American big game hunter to resort to poaching, bribery, and corruption to bring back a prized African big game trophy. It wouldn’t surprise me at all, because in fact these things happen all the time. Palmer’s biggest mistake was to bait and slaughter a particularly iconic and beloved lion who had become a famous tourist attraction in his own right, which brought on a s***storm of international attention and controversy. I have no doubt he didn’t see that part coming, and to that extent–and to that extent only–his statement of “regret” rings true to me.
Palmer may very well be guilty of everything he is accused of, I have no idea. Like all of these types of threads on CC, I find it very distasteful when people essentially try and convict people on an anonymous public message board. And in this case, add death threats to the comments about him. That is seriously shameful. Discussing the facts are fine, and there are some logical reasons to believe he is capable of breaking the law (as is anyone, including everyone on this message board). I prefer not to draw conclusions at this time.