Another "Where have we gone wrong?" thread

Parent Cafe
101

<p>Most of my friends had their kids in the 80s while I was doing infertility treatment…and the workplace had little sympathy for those who wanted to balnace parenthood and career. I worked for a large benefits consulting firm (which, one might think, would be at the cutting edge in work/life innovations) and over and over, people who wanted to return from maternity leave were told they had to be available 50-60 hours a week or don’t bother coming back. Part-time was unheard of; even a standard 35-hour week was not permitted. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, some of the most vocal opponents were women who had worked their way up the ranks and either a) worked FT crazy hours while their kids were growing up, or b) women who decided not to have kids to focus on career. We used to talk to these folks endlessly over lunch, since many of them were our mentors, and the prevailing attitude was “we had to do it the hard way, so should you.”</p>

<p>It was very short-sighted, IMHO, as the company spent lots of time and money training some very good people and lost them just as they hit their professional stride.</p>

<p>I moved to the DC area when eight months pregnant with S1, so never had to deal with that company’s ultimatums. I wound up taking nearly three years off (back-to-back babies) and then went to work for a smaller firm with a boss who had four kids. Started FT, went to PT over the years, and am now starting my third stint there three days a week after five years at home due to medical issues. We’ll see how I hold up.</p>

<p>My kids say my working didn’t affect them that much when they were young – part of it was that DH got them out in the AM, and I was able to work out flex hours so I was generally home by the time they were out of school (or shortly thereafter), so we were able to minimize day care time. I <em>will</em> say that they have appreciated me being home the past five years, though the circumstances that got me there aren’t so happy. My #1 priority was to see them successfully launched, and being home enabled me to have the energy to help them do that. No regrets there from my perspective. </p>

<p>DH, on the other hand, feels betrayed that I somehow violated our partnership by coming home. He has one of those 60-hour/week, mega-travel jobs (and I supported us while he went to the grad school that enabled him to do this), but does not appreciate the stability and flexibility that my work (in the office and at home) give him and the kids. S1 and S2, make no bones about the contribution I make by being home. S2, in fact, is not happy I’ve gone back to work because he feels that my load will increase and not be reallocated.</p>

<p>I think how couples negotiate the work/life balance is a totally unique process to those individuals and both need to recognize that needs and expectations will change over time. Everyone I know has created different paths – whatever works.</p>

<p>Camellia, I think your parents had the benefit of societal expectations that supported an equitable partnership – from paid parental leave for both parents and job security after parental leave. I think it’s great that you’re thinking about these issues now. The guy I dated in college wanted me to stay home and raise kids. I worked too hard to survive at college to even think about that and it was one of the major reasons we split up. Turns out that he never had kids, both of the women he married have had full-time careers, and I have absolutely relished the time I’ve had at home with my kids and working at various points. You never know how life will turn out!</p>

102

<p>I have nothing but sympathy for young women today trying to find an ideal work-home balance. It is a land-mine of potential pitfalls, many of which are outside your control. Expect to have to make compromises and you will be less disillusioned, in my view.</p>

<p>In my case, I had both a mother and grandmother with advanced degrees who worked full-time while raising their kids. The fact that my mother worked did not bother me and I took it as a given that I would also work full-time, which I did until early retirement six months ago. Both H and I had demanding jobs, requiring a commute into NYC from the suburbs and frequent travel for most of our careers. We also had live-in child care, cleaning ladies, yard guy, and other hired help as needed so splitting chores happened to not be an issue. </p>

<p>Our kids seemed happy and we did lots of things with them when not working. At one point, I took a year-long medical leave of absence to deal with a severe stuttering issue with my then 3-year old, caused by hearing loss. My outraged 7-year old told me that I was his mommy not his nanny and I had no right to stay home. In his world, nannies took the kids everywhere and a mother was in fact quite out of place. It is all a matter of context and expectations, I guess. I loved that year of not working outside the home, but everybody else in my family seemed to think this was a luxury not to be enjoyed a minute longer than necessary. </p>

<p>This is a potential side effect when you marry a man who believes women should be equal to men in all things. I probably could have pushed the issue, but I bought into it because of the way I was raised. I didn’t enjoy my job, but because I happened to be good at it and was the primary breadwinner, I felt I had a responsibility to keep doing it. I finally retired (not quite 50 yet) and did in fact incur grief from both of my boys that my quitting somehow hurts them. (S2 says he misses having the house to himself because I hog the computer and don’t let him blast the radio. Poor child.) H, however, finally got on board when he realized how important it was to me. I also happen to enjoy cleaning and cooking. Trust me, no hired cleaning lady will clean as well as someone who likes to clean.</p>

<p>Should we have done things differently. Probably. But, we didn’t. Each step of the way involved compromises, that seemed to be the best we could do at the time. Maybe if I had loved my job, it would have all seemed to be perfect, but then something else probably would have gone awry. I do know I don’t feel a whit of guilt about not working now. I tell my kids to just get over it.</p>

103

<p>I had a wonderful supervisor – woman, never married, never had kids – who supported my decision to not continue to take bigger and better jobs, despite pressure from the male big cheese. She came up with a wonderful description for my kind of needs. She told our boss that men think of their careers as climbing the corporate ladder, one way leading up, while some women see their careers as jungle gyms – sometimes it’s up, sometimes down, sometimes lateral depending on their needs. I love the visual of that.</p>

104

<p>jessiehl- cute quote and very true.</p>

<p>If I have one piece of advice to give young people, women and men, starting out and thinking about marriage and family, it would be to never underestimate the change in your life that a child will bring. What is of value to you before you have children will shift. The entire way you see the world will shift. I haven’t yet met a parent who would say that they were truly prepared for the impact their children have made in their lives.</p>

105

<p>When I first came to CC, I saw lots of young people arguing which college (or more specifically, which Ivy) was best, and the arguments often reminded me of the early years of parenting. Everyone wants affirmation and confirmation that they have made “the best” choice. Not a *good *choice, not a *workable *choice - nothing but the best.</p>

<p>Young parents, totally smitten with their new offspring, who are clearly the greatest, most special babies ever, spend a lot of time and energy deciding exactly how to raise them: natural or medicated, breast or bottle, cloth or disposible, every single detail analyzed and weighed. In general, I think it is great to care so much you want to take the “job” seriously. And yet, after analyzing and weighing, we then look for affirmation and validation. We look for others to say we have made the **best **decision. And we are quick to criticize those who have come to differing conclusions.</p>

<p>Staying at home vs. working is one of those things we had to weigh. And each of us looks for affirmation. Many of us reacted against what our own mothers did - in this decision, and in others.</p>

<p>If there was an absolute right or wrong way, one-size-fits-all, then there wouldn’t be such agony over the decision, and there wouldn’t be so much defensiveness.</p>

<p>The important thing for everyone to remember is that every choice involves give and take. For me to stay home, it meant loss of income. But it also meant a happier home. I got to breast feed much longer than “a couple months.” I didn’t miss a “first” anything. I was a full-time nanny to my kids. (Many SAHM’s feel guilty for spending all their time with kids, but many working parents expect their paid nannies to spend all their time with the kids. I never understood that division.)</p>

<p>It was easy for me to stay home because my H had a good job, he had a SAHM himself, and because I hated my job (nursing). If my H hated his job, and I loved mine, I have a hunch we would have been willing to trade roles.</p>

<p>Certainly I took plenty of criticism - my kids were going to be socially backward because they were with me too much, my brain would turn to jello, etc. Lots of folks implied that staying home with kids would be unstimulating, as if only dullards could stand it. Two of my sisters work full time, and one doesn’t, like me, and they have all also taken criticism. Ironically, my own mother, who worked, used to complain about my staying home, and only years later did I learn that she also ragged on my older sister for working!</p>

<p>Those of you who haven’t had to make the decision yet, it’s great that you are thinking about it, examining all sides. And that you will know your options, and be able to discuss them with potential mates. I hope you will be able to find a balance you are comfortable with.</p>

106

<p>cronie, amen to “The entire way you see the world will shift.” Yes, truly. For many of us, that job or career that seemed so important and so all encompassing pales in importance when juxtaposed with the needs of a beloved infant or child. Having a child is like having your heart walk around in someone else’s body. A job is a job: a child is, well, way more than that.</p>

107

<p>Great insights here! Too many to comment on.</p>

<p>I do like the analogy of a woman’s career as a jungle gym. Sometimes mine was a hamster run*. Always interesting, anyway. :D</p>

<p>*or a parcours trail…</p>

108

<p>For most of us, having children brings out a degree of selflessness that we didn’t know existed. Before the baby, you plan your life with your partner and ask, “what do we each want for ourselves in order to make this partnership/family work?” Once the child is there, it’s “what needs to happen in this partnership to give this little person the best chance in life?” What you and partner might need/want takes second place. Intellectually, we may realize that this is the way things will be, and think we’re ready. What throws us is that this is not a “choice” we make once the baby comes. The shift just happens, and it’s almost like it was never any other way.</p>

109

<p>Funny, but my husband married a woman who intended to work full-time, leaning toward remaining childless, and somehow he ended up with a stay-at-home mom of three. No, not two marriages - just me. Wow, I have to give credit - he never blinked an eye at the turn-around - and of course neither did I. I find it interesting to see what paths life can lead us down that are unexpected. My 20+ self would not have believed how content I could be as a stay-at-home mom.</p>

110

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<p>And see, while I would definitely believe this, in the context of this thread it sounds like it’s saying that women with kids who work have their priorities mixed up. It’s not indicative of misplaced priorities for women with children to work, any more than it is for men with children to work (and unless the family is independently wealthy, <em>someone</em> has to work), and I think it’s just as reasonable for me to say that I would not want to give up my career because of parenthood as it would be for a 23 year-old man. And I haven’t met too many people who would insist to a 23 year-old man that the joys of parenthood may yet turn him away from his career and into a stay-at-home parent, even though (just as for a woman) it might happen.</p>

<p>I don’t believe that my job is all-encompassing, FWIW. I enjoy it, and it helps me feel fulfilled, but I’m a big believer in work-life balance.</p>

111

<p>I apologize if my post (referenced above) makes it seem that I am saying that any parent who chooses to work after the birth of a child has “misplaced priorities.” That’s not what I meant at all. I just meant that when a parent (often, the mom) decides not to go back to work so as to raise the child full time, it’s understandable to me. And while I agree, in the ideal and abstract, with jessiehl that there is no reason that it has to be the woman who gives up her job after a child comes along, I happen to believe that it is more often the woman because of both our culture and the strength of, well, biology.</p>

112

<p>jessie, some parents can have a full time career and a family and others cannot. Some parents need to put their family’s needs ahead of their wish for a more balanced work-personal life preference because “life happens”. One might have a child with a disability, or major illness. One might have a spouse who must travel regularly out of state, or must work strange hours and they are the primary bread winner. A parent of the couple may be aging (the sandwich generation) and require a lot of help. When one is not committed to anything other than themselves these situations really cannot be anticipated and planned for, life plans just evolve sometimes.</p>

<p>I just want to add that many families have a better support network than others. My own mother worked for many years. When her children were young she worked part time. Prior to having children she worked full time. Once her children were in school she had the support of her own parents. They literally moved into our house M-F and did all of the housework and chores (sewing, meals for everyone, scrubbing floors, laundry etc.). This allowed both parents to work full time again. Other couples earn enough to be able to purchase similar services to be able to this too (ie: full time housekeeper). Other families are not fortunate enough to be able to purchase the necessary services required, and do not have family who want to, or can help.</p>

113

<p>Jessie:</p>

<p>When I was in grad school, a fellow grad student accused me of wanting to take away the livelihood of prospective male Ph.D.s by wanting to get a Ph.D. of my own–as if I was going to get one merely to decorate my house. I worked before I got my Ph.D. and have never stopped working. H and I raised two children and they’re well adjusted. Stick to your guns, don’t let sniping get at you.</p>

<p>That said, different people are in different situations; they have different skills, priorities, and job requirements. For example, because both of us worked, we passed up some job possibilities that would have worked for one but not for the other. Some children need a lot more care than ours (who have never been sick in their lives). We were able to make use of lots of resources that are not available to everyone. And some parents need to be with their children a lot more than others–don’t forget that aspect. Nothing wrong with that.</p>

114

<p>Well said, Marite. To OP, do what works for you and your family, and don’t feel guilty whatever it is you’ve decided!</p>

<p>I also found that once I stopped working, H was able to move up the “ladder of success” much more quickly. He could take assignments that would mean moving the family and could take jobs that meant more travel.</p>

115

<p>As I have mentioned in my previous posts, I am the one that works 10-12 hours a day, and my husband is the one at home. But when my daughters have problems (illness, school/friends issues), I am still the one they call. </p>

<p>When I was in Geneva, my daughter called me from her ballet camp to let me know her foot hurt and should she go see a doctor. When they get sick at night, they come to stand next to bed until I open my eyes (creepiest thing). I told them it’s ok to wake their dad up sometimes. They said, “And what could he do for us?” When they have problems with friends, they pull me out of meetings to give it to me blow by blow. </p>

<p>It is a very natural, biological thing that kids look to mom for comfort. As busy as I get at work, my kids are my biggest priority.</p>

116

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<p>This is true for every working mother I know. They are working because at this point in time, that is what’s best for the family, all things considered.</p>

<p>Men and women are equal, but they are certainly not the same, nor interchangeable.</p>

<p>But don’t take my comment to mean that men don’t have hearts, or can’t provide comfort. My H emailed from work this morning just to see if my daughter got off to work ok today because she had an upset stomach last night. Even while he is at work, his family is his top priority.</p>

117

<p>Such insightful posts.</p>

<p>oldfort, that’s so cute re: the waking up at night thing (plus, the ‘what could he do for us’ lol).</p>

118

<p>I choose to be a stay-at-home mom after the birth of first child 21 years ago. One of my best friends (college) has never stopped working. We each made a decision that worked best for us and our families - and it was never an issue of one decision being better than the other. We are godmothers to each others children and have shared the joys and sorrows of child raising together. I truly think she would have been slightly insane as a stay-at-home mom and the reverse is true for me. Viva the difference.</p>

119

<p>The formula for what works is different for every family. </p>

<p>I worked full-time for 21 years, got married and had my 2 kids in the next 3 years. I happily became a stay-at-home-mom and have been totally fulfilled with that job. I did lots of volunteer work, helped make it possible for my kids to do their desired activities and enjoyed making our house a home. My D was diagnosed with serious mental health problems at age 11, and I was able to make sure she got the care she needed over the next 7 years. I became a substitute teacher when my S hit junior high, so I was still available for both of them outside of school hours. </p>

<p>My H, D and S all agree that the multitude of “jobs” that I do to keep things running smoothly for all has been a terrific help for them. They understand that H has a pretty good job that provides well for us, and that our frugal lifestyle allows for my much smaller monetary contribution. </p>

<p>My own Mom worked very part-time as a nurse when I was growing up in the 50’s and 60’s, and I don’t remember her ever being gone, although I know she had to be sometimes.</p>

120

<p>I think it’s very important for both partners to be on the same page with regard to working and childcare. I did want to be home at least for a while and never was able to, and always resented my husband for that. In a totally sexist way, I always thought he should have carried the load for a while for me as I had done for him. Never happened and he will retire at 54 while I will work to 70. That should make for a happy marriage! My sister stopped working when pregnant with her son who is now 30. Her husband wanted to make a career change when the kids were older but my sister flat-out refused to get a job and help out so he could do so. I think that’s just ugly. One of the hardest things in my parenting life was living in a community where most women were SAHMs and I wasn’t. My oldest, especially, was excluded from most things in her schools because I wasn’t part of the mommy clique.</p>