Another "which LAC for Premed"

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D26 has finished receiving her offers. She wanted to see what the people on this forum thought of each of these schools–specifically their Biology programs (pre-med). She has her own opinions on each of these schools, but would appreciate CC perspectives in this one area.

Here is her short list of acceptances (in no order):

  1. Carleton College

  2. University of Richmond

  3. Wellesley College

  4. Vassar College

  5. Bates College

  6. College of the Holy Cross

She was also waitlisted at 9 schools, which was surprising, but that is a tale for another thread.

Thanks in advance.

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I would describe Wellesley as the most intellectually “intense” of her choices. If she’s up for that- and it’s affordable- I’d pick it in a heartbeat. It also offers lots of “optionality” if she pivots away from Pre-med… depth in a lot of areas, considered top rate by employers and graduate schools of all types.

But all of these choices will prepare her well for whatever comes next. I’m not a believer in the “go someplace easy so your GPA will look better” school of thought, but others can advise you on that.

fyi- Boston (and its suburbs is chock a block with biomedical, device, research companies and labs. And cross-registration with MIT (and transportation!) if she has an interest which is better covered at a technical/science university…

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Congrats on the great acceptances. Assuming they are equally affordable, I’d focus on finding the school that your D feels is the best fit. A happy student is often a more successful student.

Your D’s post-graduation success will be dependent on what she achieves over the next four years rather than which one of these fine schools she decides to attend.

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Wellesley College & Holy Cross are great options, but so are the others. Select based on fit & location assuming COA is equal at all.

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Congratulations on these great acceptances!!

Your student can take the required courses for medical school applicants at any of these colleges. So, at this point, I would suggest they look at the other things they like about these colleges…location, weather, ease of travel to home, etc.

They should choose an affordable option where they can see themselves being happy for four years.

You don’t mention finances, but this might be a consideration if medical school happens. Federally funded loans are now limited to $200,000 in total, and that includes federally funded loans for medical school. And the limit per year for medical schools is $50,000 a year (assuming no federal loans in undergrad).

If your student saves money on undergrad costs, can this money be diverted to graduate studies? Food for thought.

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Lots of opportunities for STEM research at Holy Cross. The Fauci Integrated Science Complex is an excellent facility. Our student was a Cellular and Molecular Bio major who pursued biotech after graduation but had many classmates that received excellent assistance from the Health Professions Advising department and went onto MD/DO schools. HC environment is rigorous and intellectual but definitely not cutthroat. You have lots of good choices to ponder. I would visit accepted student days with a critical eye on the “fit” topic.

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My SIL got a degree in Neuroscience from Bates. He is now finishing his 3rd year in medical school. He has lots of good things to say about Bates in terms of preparing him for medical school.

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We visited U Richmond, Vassar, Bates and Holy Cross last year and really liked U Richmond and Holy Cross.

I think all of them have strong pre-med programs with the exception of Vassar. The strongest are likely Carleton and Wellesley, but U Richmond, Bates and Holy Cross certainly hold their own.

I would say that other than Vassar I would go with the school that she feels most comfortable and attracted to. I don’t think any difference in “strength” between pre-med departments is going to matter much.

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I’m curious why you say Vassar doesn’t have good pre-med? They seem to have a high acceptance rate to med school (almost 80% according to Google AI) and the opportunities there for clinical are the same as in any mid-sized city (with the addition of easy access to NYC). My D22 is a senior there and while not STEM herself several of her good friends are, including at least one who is pre-med. I’ve never heard any complaints about the STEM offerings.

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I did not say “Vassar doesn’t have good pre-med”. Please be mindful of what you attribute to people.

Vassar is a great school (we very much liked it after our visit) and is intellectually rich, but its pre-med pipeline is more modest compared to some of the other schools on the list such as Wellesley or Carleton. I’ve heard good things about the biology program there, but the pre-med advising infrastructure may not be quite as structured or battle-tested (requires more self-advocacy by the student).

That said, a motivated student will do well at any of the schools on the list.

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Your daughter is looking at acceptances to 6 very good colleges. I would expect that her chances of getting into one or more very good MD programs are not going to change significantly regardless of which of these very good colleges she attends. If anything were to impact her chances, it would most likely just be that she should figure out which school is the best fit for her.

9 waitlists is indeed surprising. However, with 6 excellent acceptances, I just would not worry about the waitlists for even one minute (other than to be amazed that this is even possible).

If budget matters, I might tend to go with the less expensive option. Otherwise, I would visit as many top choices as is possible and go with whatever seems to be the best fit.

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I apologize, clearly I read the above quote incorrectly. I didn’t realize “not strong” was different from “not good.” I suggest the prospective student ask specifically about pre-med advising when they visit any of these schools if that is important to them.

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Even asking…you might not get a good sense of what “premed advising” means. This advising varies wildly from college to college.

Fact is…it’s the student who needs to prepare themselves for medical school applications. The colleges provide the coursework, but it’s what the student does that matters.

@WayOutWestMom

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I like that she has her own opinion. Has she visited? Then that’s what matters - her opinion.

U Richmond is business dominant. That doesn’t mean not to choose it but it might be a consideration. Carleton is three terms a year - does that matter?

Assuming cost not an issue (factor in med school too), go with her gut.

Good luck.

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I don’t think she can go wrong for pre-med purposes. As a general observation, I’d agree that assuming all are comfortably affordable in the context of also potentially having to pay for med school, I would prioritize questions like, “Where will I thrive overall?,” and, “Hypothetically, if I didn’t end up wanting to go to med school, where would I still be happy to be?”

Anyway, my S24 who was potentially interested in a Bio major (and is probably now premed, although he wasn’t thinking that at the time) had Carleton and Vassar on his short list when deciding (along with WashU, where he went). Obviously he couldn’t have considered Wellesley, and of your other three he visited Richmond but decided not to apply there.

One observation is in addition to being a very academicky school overall, the trimester system at Carleton allows you to take more classes of interest. For premeds, that can mean you have to be comfortable with a fairly quick pace, but you are then less restricted in your overall curriculum choices by the required premed classes. Again my S24 wasn’t really thinking premed, but he was coming from a trimester HS, and saw that as a plus for Carleton.

Vassar has a very popular, very robust Life Sciences program. I’m then actually a little confused about the premed comments about Vassar above. College Transitions did a study where they calculated the per capita rate for med schools in general, and what they classified as “top” med schools. I don’t think this is definitive, but it looks like:

Carleton 0.99%/0.43%

Richmond 0.52%/0.05%

Wellesley 2.00%/0.62%

Vassar 1.32%/0.35%

Bates 0.94%/0.24%

Holy Cross 1.08%/0.16%

Obviously factors like self-selection–how many kids who might want to go to med school choose a college in the first place–are playing a role here. But if I was going to single out any schools on this list for having a relatively thinner “pipeline” to medical schoos, it would not be Vassar.

On the other hand, while I again don’t think this is definitive on its own, this evidence certainly supports Wellesley being a strong choice. Obviously she has to be comfortable with a women’s college, but I think it is quite true that in terms of supporting students with further education goals, Wellesley is at least among the best.

If you wanted to get a little nuanced about it, College Transitions also did a per capita PhD study, and overall Wellesley was #21 (this includes research universities too, so that is extremely good), but Vassar was #16, and Carleton #6. None of the others on your list made the top 50, although for all we know they were close.

Then specifically in Bio, Carleton was #8, Vassar was #30, and Wellesley #41. Bates was #38, and then the others weren’t on this list.

I don’t actually think this means Carleton is the best choice for PhD aspirants. At this level, I think it is again mostly self-selection–Carleton is likely getting a disproportionate share of matriculations with PhD aspirations. But that same logic probably applies in reverse to the med school numbers. Indeed, in some sense doing particularly well in one of these per capita areas likely means “robbing” others. Like there are only so many people graduating with top grades, and if more are going to med school or law school or so on, possibly less are going to PhD programs. And vice-versa.

And I still wouldn’t rule out the other schools on your list either, if say for other reasons they stood out as places she would thrive the most.

But in my mind, it is easiest to make a purely academic case for any of Wellesley, Carleton, or Vassar, for someone who is interested in Bio and possibly premed.

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Pre med advising is nebulous term. It usually means the pre med office offers advice about what courses to take and the timeline for applying. A pre med office is usually good about helping a student get their letters of rec together and things like that. Sometimes the office will make suggestions about ECs, but the advisors don’t arrange ECs. Students still need to do that themselves. Advisors may or may not review and critique personal statements for med school applications. As for the quality of the critiques—YMMV depending on the individual advisor.

However, pre-med advisors will not provide individualized suggestions about what medical schools to apply to. Nor do they provide a review of the strengths and weaknesses of the overall application.

Additionally, some pre-ed advising offices serve as gatekeepers to keep a college’s pre-med acceptance rate high. They will weed out applicant the advisors feel don’t have an excellent chance for med school acceptance. (Thye do this by discouraging certain applicants or by outright denying the applicant a LOR from the advising office–whihc is HUGE red flag on a med school applications.)

Lastly, if you student applies as a new grad or alumni instead of as a rising college senior, the pre-med office may not offer much support at all.

Also do not expect pre-med advisors to be familiar with medical school outside the immediate area of the school. (IOW, New England LACs will know about New England area med schools, but not, say, upper midwest or Pacific coast med schools.)

So, think about what you expect from a pre-med advising office.

~~

FWIW, there are national organization for pre-med that provide networking and med school fairs where students can ask questions directly with med school representatives. AMSA, HOSA, Alpha epsilon Delta for any pre med. LMSA, MAPS and SNMA for particular ethnic/racial affinity groups.

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Do you happen to have a link to that College Transitions study? I can’t seem to find it.

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Apparently this forum’s software automatically kills College Transition links.

However, if you google:

From Pre-Med to MD: Understanding the Pathways to Medical School

That should pull up the med school study. Then:

Top Feeders to Ph.D. Programs (Ph.D. Productivity)

. . . should pull up the PhDs study.

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I think I found it! Thank you.

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Yes, she has visited ALL of these schools. The only downside is that all of her visits were in the summer when no kids were there. She wants to see the student bodies, but she may only get to see admitted students at admitted student days.