Carleton vs Haverford vs Vassar vs case western for premed/prephd

College Search & Lists
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unfortunately lac day was not kind to me, and with my only schools remaining all being ivy+ schools, ive started weighing my options a bit prematurely. im a bit bummed out i havent gotten into any reaches (the amherst rejection really stung), so ive tried convincing myself to fall in love with the target schools that did accept me.

some background: i want to double major in bio and something humanities (anthro? or sociology maybe) and plan to go to either phd (biochem focus and do industry research), md (pathology or anesthesiology), or md/phd.

cost doesnt matter (my parents are paying completely/have saved up everything and have told me multiple times that the good-ness of the school matters most) and i am full pay for all of these colleges.

the main things that matter to me are accessibility by public transport (i cant drive & dont have a car), location (though i can definitely brave the cold), career/grad school placements, general student culture (im weird but not super weird, no athlete cliqueyness), academic rigor (i want to learn!), and prestige (LMAO)

carleton college

pros: highest ranking of my options (t10), fun/quirky vibe, friendly student body, stem oriented and phd feeder, nice-ish campus, ivy of the midwest LMAO, cozy

cons: i can brave the cold but my family has hella beef with minnesota for some reason and is very adamant that i might become depressed from the cold (though the 6-week winter break is nice), not really accessible by public transit (would have to fly home), kind of isolated, farthest from home, minneapolis is kinda going through it right now and i think carleton is in ice lockdown currently, maybe too weird??

haverford college

pros: bi-co with bryn mawr and somewhat connected to swat and penn, 4+1 for a masters in bioethics at penn, honor code seems really cool, very friendly/welcoming vibe, senior thesis!, 95% acceptance rate the med school (seems to only apply to applicants with relatively high gpas), very involved premed advisory board (writes a rec letter), very accessible by public transit, close-ish to home, cute town and socializing w/ bryn mawr, seems historically pretty prestigious, i rlly liked my interviewer

cons: lower ranking than carleton (24th) and pretty small for an LAC (1400 ppl is very very small), not sure about grad school placements and lab opportunities, logo lowk uglyyy, have heard it can be a little athlete-centric

my other options are: vassar, case western ($34k/year scholarship), hamilton (jan entrance :/) lafayette ($26.5k/year scholarship), bates, stony brook.

thank you so much in advance! fingers crossed for ivy day but wont get my hopes up

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Was Amherst right for public transport? Don’t know but….

I think the rank is not relevant - you’ve listed all FANTASTIC schools. That you didn’t get in to a reach won’t slow you down. People choose safeties over reaches each and every day. Carleton is on trimester/quarters - 3 a year. Does that matter to you?

The 4+1 at Haverford sounds great. I’d say Haverford is a peer to Carleton. Rankings are for selling magazine and click bait. Both mine chose safeties over “reaches” and frankly, gazillions of kids do every day. And some lower ranked schools are the largest PhD feeders. In other words, three kids could get into Amherst, Haverford and Carleton and all three can reasonably pick a different one - not sure the rank obsession came in but these are all top notch. Vassar, CWRU, Lafayette, Bates and Stony Brook - all FANTASTIC.

Now - SB is a different size. CWRU too but closer to the smaller.

The question becomes - with public transport, weather and other things - which is right for you.

You know which schools kids choose over Ivies?? Pretty much all you listed, for various regions.

Bottom line - you CRUSHED it. Don’t be down on yourself. You have an embarrassment of riches.

Look at PhD feeders - per capita, per college transitions:

For Bio Haverford is #3, Carleton #8 - both above Amherst. Vassar is #30 (isn’t it on the train?), and Bates 38. I wouldn’t worry about the rank - clearly they all develop students who go on for PhD.

For Anthro, BM is #10, Haverford #14, Carleton #15, Amherst #49.

Honestly, you are WAAAAAAY too rank focused (and there are many ranks - many that don’t agree with US News - some list Bucknell #1, as an example) - but you have hit an absolute crushing home run!!!

Find the one that fits your need - the PhD capability will be there at all.

Congrats - and best of luck with the rest but you don’t need it. You’ve already got cake and icing. They’d just be the cherry on top.

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If we are voting, I would suggest you look more carefully at Case Western Reserve University. From what you have written, it checks off a lot of your boxes. Yes, there is winter weather…but so do your other acceptances.

Many of these schools are also located in colder climates.

Honestly, take a deeper dive into CWRU.

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I’m not sure what you mean by a disappointing LAC day – you’ve got some outstanding acceptances! Congratulations! I’m sorry you didn’t get into your top choice (forget them and look forward), but you got into a lot of reaches by any objective measure. You’ve got a wealth of opportunities here, and many schools that easily qualify as “prestigious” (which is largely in the eye of the beholder, but objectively speaking, you’re choosing between some of the best colleges in the country).

I can shed some light on some of your choices, as my kids are or are about to attend LACs, and we’ve seen several of these schools.

Carleton: Wonderful school, lovely campus, cute town, quirky vibe. It’s very easy to fly from Minneapolis to just about anywhere, and it’s easy to get to Minneapolis from Northfield (I think there might be a shuttle?). Yes, Minneapolis has had its struggles, but you wouldn’t be in or near Minneapolis on a daily basis, and I’m pretty sure the ICE assault on Northfield was short-term. I really loved Carleton when we saw it. I’ve lived in the upper Midwest, though, and cold, dark winters don’t bother me. Does your family have reason to think they would bother you, or are they just projecting? You’re right that you’d miss the darkest part of winter bc of the long break.

Haverford: My S26 loved Haverford and might well have applied ED2 had he not gotten into his ED school. I would not worry about ranking – it’s a fantastic school, ranking doesn’t matter but even if it did, there’s zero meaningful difference between T10 and T30 (or whatever arbitrary number you choose). The partnership with Bryn Mawr/Swarthmore/Penn opens up a lot of opportunities (but really it’s mostly Bryn Mawr, due to logistics of transportation and scheduling). Haverford is tiny, but I think its relationship with Bryn Mawr makes it seem bigger. My son was also impressed with the honor code and the extent of student governance. Public transport makes Philly very accessible. Haverford might have more of an athlete-driven culture than you want, though (which you pointed out, though I’m honestly not sure, and you should ask current students).

Of the other schools on your list, I’m familiar with Hamilton, Vassar, and Bates. Hamilton is lovely, but between the difficulty in getting to/from the school and the January start, it might not be ideal for you. I understand that it might also be a little cliquey due to a high percentage of athletes and its Greek system. I loved Vassar – so did my D23, and my S26 loved it when we toured it with his sister, but when he went back for a second look for himself, it didn’t click as much for some reason. He had mixed feelings about the housing system and wasn’t sure whether it had distinctive opportunities for his particular interests. It’s one of the less sports-dominated LACs, though, which might be a plus for you. And finally, my daughter goes to Bates and absolutely loves it. There are a lot of athletes (as you’ll find at almost any LAC) but doesn’t feel cliquey, and I think a quirky, curious non-athlete would feel at home there (that describes my daughter). It’s a little harder to get to than Haverford, but if you live on the East Coast near an airport of reasonable size, it should be easy enough to get to Portland and then Uber/cab/carpool to Lewiston. Bates is a little less accessible if you don’t have a car (not the campus, but the surrounding region, if you want to go farther afield), but there are shuttles – regional shuttles that can get you to Portland, and school shuttles to help you run errands (Target/groceries/etc.). From Portland, it’s easy to get to Boston by train or bus. My D, now a junior, has not had a car on campus this whole time (she’ll have one next year), but between public transportation and friends with cars, she’s been fine.

I’m not saying anything about SB or CWR not because I don’t respect them, but because I know far less about them.

I think a lot of these schools have high admit rates to both med school and grad school. Worth checking, but I’m confident that most or all do.

One suggestion: if you’re interested in double-majoring and/or going abroad, you should think about a school with a more minimal or flexible core curriculum. An extensive core curriculum might make it harder to double major and complete pre-med requirements if that remains your interest.

Stop focusing on rankings. You won the rankings game (which shouldn’t be a factor, but there you have it). Focus now on which schools meet your needs and provide you the most distinctive and meaningful opportunities.

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thank you so much for the advice! honestly I think the reason I’m so focused on rank is because they all seem very good and its hard to filter them because of it. the trimester system wasn’t something I thought of so thanks for the mention!

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thank you so much for the detailed and personal advice! I think I was trying to convince myself of carleton fit because of the rankings, but I realize that its kind of irrelevant. I’m definitely considering Bates for its biochem facilities!! TYSM again! <3

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You should completely ignore ranking. All of the colleges that you are still considering are VERY good, and you can get a very good education at any of them.

By the way, one daughter is currently working towards a biomedical PhD in a very good (and well ranked) program. What is more important is that the program is a good fit for her, and she likes her academic advisor and fellow students. The other students in her program come from a HUGE range of other schools. There is someone in the program from Harvard, someone else from a top New England LAC (ranked very close to Amherst College), someone from U.Mass Amherst, someone from U.Mass Lowell, quite a few students from lower ranked schools, a few students from schools outside the US, a few students from schools that I had never heard of, and students from lots of other undergraduate programs. This is typical for graduate students at any very good MD or biomedical PhD programs. What you do as an undergraduate student will matter. Where you do it will mostly not matter much at all, and you are only comparing very good programs.

You can do just as well by majoring in biology and just taking the humanities (anthro or sociology) classes. This is however something that you can figure out next year or the year after or even the year after that, and your academic advisor in college can help you with this also.

This will not differ significantly among the excellent schools you are considering.

And this will not matter past the first few weeks of college.

This would matter to me.

This can be gamed. For example they probably only count students who pass some sort of approval process.

Just as one example, one daughter was pre-vet, and went through a summer program in dairy herd management that had something like a 90% acceptance rate for DVM programs. However, she did not just say “I want to do this” and get in. She had to apply. The criteria for getting in included her GPA, her references, and having relevant animal experience. In other words the criteria for getting into the program were very similar to the criteria that would later be used to get a student into DVM programs. Then the program in addition was actually a very good program. In other words they take students who are already likely to succeed, and provide them with a great program that further helps them to succeed. Something like this is pretty much how you get a 90%+ acceptance rate, whether to MD programs or DVM programs.

On the other hand, this does allow a student to get a relatively good hint early regarding what their chances are likely to be later when they do apply to medical programs. This does seem like it would be quite valuable.

These are very good also. Don’t underestimate Stony Brook, or any of these schools.

This I would not know at the schools that you are considering. However one plus is that you were accepted to multiple relatively small schools, which would tend to suggest that the campus is likely to be well contained. Does it matter to you whether the campus is flat or hilly, and if so have you looked into this?

Have you visited the schools that you are still considering?

Minnesota is indeed cold and dark in the winter. Are you okay on icy sidewalks? The cold is one thing. Having to get around when there is ice and snow in the way is a different obstacle.

In the winter in any cold area there will be some days when travel is disrupted due to snow. Both daughters for example had trips home over Christmas / New Year’s disrupted at some point. One time my younger daughter just got back to school a day late and missed a day of classes due to a snow storm. However, on that occasion about half the university missed the same day of classes, so her professors all adjusted the class content accordingly.

And this is really my main reaction. You are in at multiple great schools. Congratulations!

I can see that picking one to attend is not easy.

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However, when considered by difficulty of admission, this site placed Carleton in the same Extremely Selective category as Haverford, Vassar and CWRU:

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The new(ish) biochem facilities are great! One of my D’s majors is Environmental Studies (sciences track) and she also takes care of the animals in the bio lab, so she makes much use of the science center.

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Based on survey information, Bates students highly regard their school’s science facilities:

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Ranking is an outcome determined by a methodology someone created. Who is to say US News has the right one?

Here is Washington Monthly - Berea is #1 and Haverford #3 and Bates #14.

WSJ has 3 LACs in the top 20 (no LAC category) - Davidson, Harvey Mudd, Claremont McKenna

Linkedin rates Bucknell #21, the highest ranked LAC, followed by W&L, Colgate, Trinity, Richmond and Lafayette - so no Amherst, no Carleton, etc.

So you’re getting worked up because you chose to look at US News - but there’s many rankings and many FANTASTIC schools. Ivy or not - head high!!! And all these ranks come based on the methodology used.

You mentioned weather and train - it does seem Vassar (vs. the list) would be good - but CWRU might be great too if you want bigger.

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Students who choose rail travel would arrive within 11 miles of campus, with a shuttle available for the remaining leg.

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I’ll be very blunt. Generic rankings of undergrad programs are a silly idea. They are particularly silly as applied to LACs. As it happens, you have been offered spots at some of my very top LAC suggestions for what I would describe as academicky kids.

If you actually need some objective verification, you can look up College Transitions’ PhD feeders study (perhaps you already have). Per capita, Carleton is #6–only Caltech, Harvey Mudd, Swarthmore, MIT, and Hampshire are higher, not a single Ivy in fact. And then Haverford is #7! Vassar is #16, actually a spot ahead of Amherst, and still ahead of most of the Ivies (it is just behind Princeton and Harvard). Point being you have great options.

OK, so, some specific notes. Carleton is actually easy to get to from the Minneapolis airport, there are regular buses and then they put on extra at the beginning and ends of breaks. That regular bus is also convenient for just visiting the Twin Cities. Minnesota is in fact cold and snowy in the winter, and Carleton leans into it by turning their central quad, the Bald Spot, into an ice pond for broomball:

They also have a great arboretum perfect for winter walks, sledding opportunities, and so on:

I grew up with snowy winters and all this would be super appealing to me. Obviously it is very personal, though.

Haverford does in fact have all the pros you suggested, and I think being on the Main Line with quick train access to downtown Philly is a huge plus. In terms of your cons, again I would completely ignore their generic ranking, and they are objectively a great place to go if you are interested in support for PhD programs as a next step, or medical schools for that matter. To really put their size in context I think you need to factor in the BiCo with Bryn Mawr, as in fact there is a lot of interaction between the students, academically, socially, and so on. The academic relationships with Swarthmore and Penn are not as actively used as the BiCo, but can become relevant if there are particular niche upper level classes you end up wanting to take that neither Haverford or Bryn Mawr offer.

Virtually all LACs have more varsity athletes proportionately than comparable research universities, which is because the required size of a varsity team does not really scale down. Haverford does have more than Carleton or Vassar, though, on a par with NESCACs like Hamilton. See here:

I don’t really get the sense that the athletes at Haverford are super “cliquey” however.

You didn’t list pros and cons for the others, but there are a lot of great schools on that list! If you would prefer a research university, Case Western is an excellent one, in a nice neighborhood with easy access to downtown Cleveland. Vassar again is another top academicky LAC, the Hudson Valley is a lovely part of the country, easy to get down to NYC by train. Hamilton is a great school, but obviously not particularly close to a really major metro. Same with Bates really. Both great for various outdoor recreation opportunities, though. Lafayette and Stony Brook are also very good too, but maybe getting farther from what you seem to be looking for.

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Please let go of the rankings issue. These are all great options. From your description I’d think you want to choose a school with a flexible coursework option and no Greek life. I am biased as I went to Vassar. Many create their own majors, or double major, it’s quite easy to do. And many if not most get advanced degrees. Have you visited the schools?

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This might help you with the rankings obsession (at least I hope it does!). I regularly speak with (informational interviews) and interview (to hire) young college graduates for entry into a highly competitive field. You have been accepted to a range of truly terrific schools. Congratulations! I would be delighted to see graduates from any one of these schools, and they would all read as “equal” to me in the pile of resumes that also includes plenty of Ivy kids. What stands out is YOU. What did you DO at these schools? What are your grades? (In my field this can matter for certain entry level positions, after that not so much what matters is how you perform in the role) Did you have a job while in school? (Doesn’t need to be a fancy impossible to get internship – just actual work experience and yes it’s ok if some of it is at an ice cream shop. Really.). I won’t attempt to speak to pre-med as others here are much more qualified. But I do feel comfortable telling you that your acceptances are impressive and you can do great things at all of these schools.

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When I was deciding between LACs, I took a hard look at their reliance (or over-reliance) on visiting assistant professors. I wanted professors with whom I could form a close relationship. One of the schools (one on your list) that I was considering boasted of these close relationships, but in point of fact some students had taken 15 out of 16 classes with visiting assistant professors. When I called the school to ask how I was supposed to form a relationship with professors who would leave after a year or two, they told me I could have a close relationship with them while they were there.

I think people get hung up on rank and reputation and don’t take a close look at what matters to them. To me, it was the student-professor relationship. This might not be important to you, but if it is, I suggest looking into it. Perhaps the situation has changed.

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I think one thing that isn’t always clear to kids at this juncture is many of the applicants not ultimately admitted to the most selective holistic review private research universities were equally if not more academically accomplished as the ones who were admitted. To the extent they were “missing” something, it was just that this cycle they weren’t needed to help fill some OTHER sort of institutional priority. So, maybe not a recruited athlete, not a faculty kid, didn’t quite stand out enough in some student activity area relative to others that cycle, weren’t needed to satisfy any diversity goals that cycle, or so on.

OK, and then a few years later these kids are applying for grad schools, professional schools, selective career track positions, and so on. And mostly that other stuff that mattered when applying to colleges doesn’t actually matter any more. Maybe a good college activity or two, possibly work experience during breaks (for the professional school/employment tracks). But otherwise how you do as a student, networking through professors, that sort of thing now dominates.

So it isn’t really a surprise to me these sorts of LACs and such do so well in placement studies. The kids they enroll are just as capable for those sorts of tracks, and the people making selections for those next-step positions know it. And the other stuff that might have mattered for holistic review college admissions really doesn’t matter much anymore, if at all.

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Just an anecdote, but my senior thesis advisor was a visiting professor, and she was obviously one of my recommenders, and I got PhD program offers from the top departments in my field (I chose the one that was basically the best in the world at the time for what I was interested in studying).

I think some of the maybe not-so-obvious pros in that situation were not a lot of other kids in my college department were angling to get her attention. I also wonder if it might have helped that as a recent highly successful PhD student herself, she really could speak credibly to what that required in that era. But in any event, it worked out great for me.

So personally, I actually think it is true a year or two is enough. Practically, that is really how long you have taking upper-level major courses before you are applying for next steps anyway. It ends up going by in a blur.

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Congrats, you have some amazing choices!

I am biased, but I think Haverford is a great school. I went to Bryn Mawr and took many classes at both Haverford and Swarthmore. I had friends who took classes at Penn. Philly is also great for internship access. Public transportation is super easy and you definitely don’t need a car. I loved spending time in the city while I was a student there. (I am laughing at your description of Haverford being athlete-centric because that was definitely NOT the case in the late 90s/early 2000s!) I loved my Philly-area college experience and am still in touch with many of my BMC/HC friends. Great alumni networks. I think Haverford has a lot of what you are looking for. Hopefully you can attend an accepted students day!

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I’m glad that worked out for you. And yes, departments do have to replace professors out on leave, etc. so of course adjuncts and visiting professors have a place. But when a school is relying on revolving door visiting assistant professors rather than hiring tenured faculty, I think that indicates an issue that merits investigation by prospective students.

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