Anti-Gay-Marriage Leader Resigns

Parent Cafe
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<p>I looked at your site, conyat, and perhaps the priest does say some words in between. It is so automatic to me I never thought about it. I never felt offended that we were saying the “Protestant version.” I just thought it was a part of Vatican II–reaching out to other denominations, as I said.</p>

<p>As far as the school system, in our state the schools are very busy teaching the Christian Bible as just another set of myths, like Greek, Roman and Norse mythology. Should may you all very happy.</p>

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<p>Yep. I’ve been told that the Pope is the anti-Christ, that Rome (which sits on seven hills) is the Whore of Babylon from Revelations, that we worship the Pope, that we aren’t allowed to read the Bible, that we’re all going to burn in Hell unless we convert. The President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary quite recently called the Catholic church a “false church” that “teaches a false gospel.” </p>

<p>To be fair, Catholics also used to teach that Protestants were all going to Hell. My dad always used to refer to himself as “a dirty old Lutheran” vis a vis my mother’s faith.</p>

<p>In Cathecism the nuns used to tell us a cautionary tale about a girl who married a Protestant man. (Somehow, in the story, they were allowed a church wedding, which wouldn’t have been true at the time). As they were leaving the ceremony after the wedding, he turned her around and said, “Take a good at the altar, because you’ll never see it–or your family again.” The nuns managed to leave off the “muhaha” at the end, but it was definitely implied.</p>

<p>HH, of course you wouldn’t feel offended if you’re choosing to say it that way. It’s a little different when the people calling your religious leader the anti-Christ are forcing your kid to do it as the price of a public education. As CGM points out, words and symbols are very potent.</p>

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<p>Spare me the rest of your anti-Catholic rant (or anti-Christian rant? I can’t even tell). My father was also baptized Lutheran and never stepped foot inside a Church, had to agree to raise his kids Catholic etc. etc., blah blah blah.</p>

<p>People are human, people make mistakes, people live and learn.</p>

<p>Give it a rest.</p>

424

<p>HH, you’re getting increasingly ridiculous, by accusing me of being anti-Catholic or anti-Christian when I have strong ties to both. Unlike you, I at least know the prayers of my own faith. The only thing I am “anti” is the establishment of religion by government, and discrimination is germane to that. The reason I am pointing up discriminatory things both sides have done is that I am making an effort to be fair to be both sides. I can understand how that would be confusing to you. Fairness seems to be the last thing on your mind when you write a post.</p>

425

<p>"No one is denying the Church any rights. If churches want to endorse candidates, they can do what the VFW does. They can establish separately incorporated Political Action Committees and make all the endorsements they want. But I suspect you don’t want that, because it would prevent the Church from taking money given it for religious purposes and using it for political ones. And it would prevent the church from demanding that its members vote a certain way or face eternal damnation.</p>

<p>The basis for the tax exemption given churches isn’t the Separation of Church and State. It’s the assumption that the church’s income will only be used for charitable, religious, and educational purposes. It’s bit much to declare that not being able to use that money for other means without paying tax on it is an infringement of your “rights.”</p>

<p>And why are you so certain that church members need to be told how to vote? If they are true believers, and there’s such a clear distinction between the candidates that it should be a matter of faith, shouldn’t the church members be able to spot this for themselves?"</p>

<p>Well said!</p>

<hr>

<p>Don’t have time right now to address all the points, but for now I will say this:</p>

<p>I was raised Catholic. My dad made SUCH a big deal about the Catholic church ‘giving in’ the the Prostestants (and he would literally SPIT the word ‘Protestant’) that for years I would refuse to say that part of the Lord’s Prayer that got added to the end because I thought it was evil. I will also vouch for the accuracy in conyat’s post #422 and could tell you lots more stories about the venom directed at Protestants by Catholics. It was a really big deal.</p>

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<p>Hereshoping, you are wasting your time. People will continue to believe what they want to believe, whether or not it has any basis in theology or fact. For what it’s worth, as a lifelong practicing Catholic, whose children have only attended Catholic schools preschool - 12th grade, I think you have a very good understanding of our faith. People will try to bait you and argue about unimportant matters, but that doesn’t matter. You know what we believe.</p>

427

<p>Sjmom, no one is telling HH that she has to be offended by inclusion of the doxology in the Lord’s prayer. We’re just asking her to keep an open mind that some people may be offended when praying another denomination’s or religion’s prayers is demanded of them by government officials. Frankly, I’m having a hard time understanding why that’s such a controversial position.</p>

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<p>What HH doesn’t understand, or maybe does, that in the Catholic Church, as in others words re EVERYTHING- intonation is important as well</p>

<p>To think whether the Priest says it or the congregation does is important, in that the sayer is the one with the “power” as it were</p>

<p>If the priest says those words, it means that at that point he is teaching and guiding the congregation, while if the congregation says it themselves, they are in charge of the words, to think it is a minor point is missing the whole point of Mass</p>

<p>There was much debate about the order, the words, the responses in masses for centuries, and when a minor change is made, the congregation is informed, it is explained, and it may seem to be small, but believe me, any change is major</p>

<p>Faith is one thing, practice in a Church is quite another</p>

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<p>As a side note, I always found the words between the Lord’s prayer and the Doxology some of the most beautiful and comforting in the entire Mass. I rather wish that the Protestant tradition incorporated them.</p>

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<p>“Please try to remember, I am simply trying to show how the Christians view these things. You may reject that God said anything. But they believe the Bible and they see how Jesus also believe it. They are being influenced by this, including with their view of homosexuality.”</p>

<p>Drossel, I understand your point. Really I do. But the bottom line is that they are trying to impose their views on others. We need laws to keep people from harming one another, unfortunately, but when some groups try to impose laws denying others the very rights this country was founded on, that’s going too far.</p>

<p>Actually, I do believe Jesus’ death was more than an example of ‘turning the other cheek.’ But I will refrain from saying what I think about that because I’m not in the mood to counter all the arguments that would surely ensue. See, I don’t really care what people believe and I’m not interested in converting anyone to what I believe.</p>

<p>I hope you check out the ‘Chalice and the Blade’ and the ‘Christian Conspiracy’ books.</p>

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<p>“it’s ordinary people like you and me, but who believe that because the consequences of religious choices are for eternity, their concern for others’ immortal souls trumps their concern for their civil rights. I don’t believe this is evil; it’s very much in line with my own religious views.”</p>

<p>I do think it’s evil. But then, my personal belief is that the secret to eternity, so to speak, has nothing to do with one’s religion (or lack thereof) and everything to do with one’s consciousness. To be concerned about another’s rights is the same as being concerned about their soul, or it should be. It’s about love and compassion. That’s my belief, anyway. </p>

<p>My son had a girlfriend who was talking about suicide and we reported it to the homeschool directors and they essentially did nothing in favor of trying to enforce a ‘no kissing’ rule. It’s along story but the main issue was that they were hypocritical and made it obvious they didn’t care about what happened to her. The message they sent my son was that her life didn’t matter at all as long as she stayed ‘pure’ from kissing any boys.</p>

<p>That turned him off Christianity.</p>

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<p>my immortal soul after I am gone is more valuable to some than my living being here on earth? </p>

<p>what happens to my “soul” or whatever after I die is my business as it were, and to think it would be okay to not care about my civil rights while I am alive and to think that the dead are more important than the living is scary, sad, and ultimately, dangerous</p>

<p>amazing that someone would value death over life</p>

432

<p>Yes, very scary.</p>

<p>There’s this fund. guy at work who has been in favor of the Iraq war all along. When I mentioned to him about the 150,000 Iraqi civilians who’ve been killed as a result of the so-called ‘liberation,’ he actually said it didn’t matter because they were all going to ‘hell’ anyway. He wasn’t kidding, either.</p>

<p>Scary. People are supporting wars because they have decided that the people’s lives don’t matter.</p>

<p>Has God appeared to them and explicitly told them to kill these people? Oops, sorry, God only did that in the old testament days. He doesn’t talk to people anymore. (Well, there are plenty of people CLAIMING to be hearing from God thru channeling, but most of them are considered insane or ‘satanic.’)</p>

<p>–</p>

<p>The co-op directors told my son that they couldn’t control what happened to the girl’s life, only her soul. She & my son got caught kissing. (Just a good-bye kiss, nothing more.) I told my son he needed to accept their rules. OK, no problem there - it didn’t happen again. But, they said it was as serious as setting the church on fire or stealing or selling drugs. My son said those were malicious whereas kissing was not. My son then told them he was relieved they’d been caught because now maybe the girl could get some help. He further explained that while yes, hormones were obviously involved, he really did care about her and sometimes when they were hugging he really was trying to comfort her. He then told them that she was threatening suicide due to some problems with her parents. I’d already called CPS, who could do nothing about it because there was no sign of physical abuse. I thought surely the directors would do SOMETHING to try to help her. All they did was have the youth pastor talk to her a couple of times, which accomplished nothing. Then they expelled both of them for a day because they were seen in the doorway of a room, even though that room was right next to the office so obviously they weren’t going to be making out right there. The director admitted that nothing happened but he was going to expel them anyway. So, get this: the girl was so terrified of getting in trouble with her parents for getting expelled, that she finally carried out her threat. The directors knew about this possibility beforehand but did it anyway!</p>

<p>She survived, fortunately. But the whole incident completely opened my son’s eyes to their hypocrisy. They talk about caring about others. Jesus taught to help the poor and the sick. Yet, when it came down to it, they blatantly admitted that running a co-op free from even the APPEARANCE of such a ‘sinful’ thing as teenagers sharing a kiss, was more important than taking appropriate action to help a troubled teen.</p>

<p>This is fanatical, scary stuff.</p>

<p>Yes, it was a private school. But it was open to anyone, regardless of Christian religion (as long as they weren’t Buddhists or Pagans. And Mormons were accepted but blatantly ostracized.).</p>

<p>Again, I do have some Christian friends who are wonderful, beautiful, caring people. So I don’t mean this as a criticism of all Christians. I am using it as an example of the mentality that is very prevalent even among very mainstream fundamentalist Christians. I find this mentality dangerous. Think about this being the mentality on a wide scale. Think about this mentality in the courtroom of a theocracy. For example, do you really think that non-Christians would get a fair trial?</p>

<p>Our country has made tremendous progress in the area of civil rights of minorities. While, amazingly, some people are still prejudiced nowadays, a huge percentage of the population is not. Interrracial marriages are increasingly common.</p>

<p>But, it seems to me that there is a new type of prejudice arising - the prejudice towards non-Christians. </p>

<p>This is regression.</p>

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<p>As a humanist, I feel so sad when I hear more about appreances, nore about the soul, more about what happens after we die.</p>

<p>I think religious people’s priority should be for the LIVING- the people here and now, those in pain, those suffering, those in need, and those people should be helped WITHOUT the need to save their soul…to me, if I ruffle some feathers, I don’t really care, but it saddens me that those that profess to follow Jesus in such a manner don’t do what Jesus taught- care for the unclothed, the hungry, the lepers- </p>

<p>loaves and fishes was for the body, not just the soul…and whatever happens to my soul or my mom’s soul when we die is between us and God</p>

<p>I look at what Jesus’s main teachings were, and to me, it was living decent (and that doesn’t mean wealthy) lives, it was doing for others, it was serving others, it was not totally focused on the soul after death, and for others to assume and be arrogant enough to think that Mother Theresa is in hell bcause she wasn’t born again, well, you can have your heaven</p>

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<p>I don’t spend much time arguing about religion. Around here when the conversation turns that direction I just smile and nod. Smile and nod. The only thing I know for true is that those who think their road is the only road to heaven and treat others as if that’s true will never even make it to the gate. </p>

<p>Oh, yeah. And one more. That Old Testament “God of woozles and heffalumps” (as my D described a Victorious Life church service when she was in grade school)? Y’all can have all of that fella you want. Don’t worry about me. Have seconds and thirds. ;)</p>

435

<p>There’s this other guy at work who told me that he and his wife had decided to drop their Catholicism in favor of being atheists. I was surprised - I am no longer Catholic myself but I still very strongly do believe in God (just not the bible version of God). So I asked him why they’d decided that.</p>

<p>He said they didn’t want to do good things just to get into ‘heaven.’ He said that ever since their decision about a year ago, they were much better people. They now found themselves doing good things for the sake of doing the right thing instead of the fear of going to ‘hell.’ They felt much more loving and fulfilled. They are now enjoying life and enjoying helping people for the sake of helping people, which they considered the right reasons. They had no regrets.</p>

<p>I personally wouldn’t give up my belief in God completely, but I found their story intriguing.</p>

<hr>

<p>As for my personal belief regarding Jesus, I think he was one of many great avatars (along with Buddha, Krishna, and many others) who are sent here by God from time to time, to teach us about LOVE. At their deepest levels, all religions are basically saying the same thing: love, forgive, have compassion, etc. They were examples for us. </p>

<p>Wouldn’t that be wild if some of the ‘wrathful God’ stuff in the old testament wasn’t from God at all, but was a distraction from Jesus’ true message? Just a thought.</p>

<p>That’s just my opinion, of course.</p>

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What a beautiful sentiment, and if I may speak for our religious right fringe members who must still be deep in prayer , one that you will burn for in Hell in everlasting “H. Bosch illustrated” torment. ;)</p>

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<p><<as a=“” humanist…=“”>></as></p>

<p><a href=“http://www.jcn.com/manifestos.html[/url]”>www.jcn.com/manifestos.html</a></p>

<p><<as in=“” 1933,=“” humanists=“” still=“” believe=“” that=“” traditional=“” theism,=“” especially=“” faith=“” the=“” prayer-hearing=“” god,=“” assumed=“” to=“” live=“” and=“” care=“” for=“” persons,=“” hear=“” understand=“” their=“” prayers,=“” be=“” able=“” do=“” something=“” about=“” them,=“” is=“” an=“” unproved=“” outmoded=“” faith.=“” salvationism,=“” based=“” on=“” mere=“” affirmation,=“” appears=“” as=“” harmful,=“” diverting=“” people=“” with=“” false=“” hopes=“” of=“” heaven.=“”>></as></p>

<p>These manifestos are very interesting reading. Now I understand cgm’s take on the Bible. (I was a little confused there when she was a Catholic.) I’m curious, though, if being a Humanist requires proselytizing against the Bible as being the word of God and proselytizing generally against Chrisitanity and other organized religions? I have no problem with people having this belief, of course, as long as they are honest about where they are coming from when trying to influence others (as you have been doing, cgm). For example, our school system is guided by secular humanists; however, they would never in a million years refer to themselves by that name. It is a belief system like any other, in otherwords a <em>religion</em>–and yet it is allowed to be taught in our state schools. Obviously, it it was called what it really is, most of we traditional, old-fashioned Christian fuddy-duddies might have a problem with it, so it is never referred to.</p>

<p>People here have said about gay marriage, not-to-worry, kids will grow up accepting it. Of course this is true. Kids are being indoctrinated in secular humanism from the minute they step inside our schools. And as we can see from people’s comments here, they are fighting very hard against the “outmoded” beliefs of Christianity.</p>

<p>I really don’t see an end to the profound culture war going on in our country until people are <em>honest</em> about their true goals and beliefs. As I’ve said, as far as I can tell all this talk of fear of a theocracy is just scare tactic propaganda to tear down religion and bring people over to the humanist world view. Why not just be honest, people? How can we even respect your views at all if you are not fundamentally honest about them? </p>

<p>Thank you, cgm, for finally acknowledging your true beliefs.</p>

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<p>Personal opinion - someone who decides to “drop Catholicism” probably wasn’t very Catholic to begin with. I agree that God is all about love – I don’t agree that all religions are all about love, though. At its essence, I believe Catholicism is all about love for God and love for one’s neighbor.</p>

<p>I’ve heard it said that there are no atheists in foxholes. Who knows? I do think that it is human nature to turn to a higher power during times of duress. </p>

<p>When my father was dying of cancer, we had several deep conversations. I remember saying that after death, one of two things happens. Either there is “Something” or there is nothing. If there is nothing, we’ll never know. But my father’s faith was so strong at the end of his life, as was my mother’s, that I personally have no doubt. I’m a little worried about my mistakes along the way, though! :eek:</p>

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<p>hereshoping, you may have confused some of my posts with cgm’s. Many were similar but I think you might be referring to me on some of your comments. (I don’t want cgm to get blamed for something I said!) I think you might have mixed us up, blurred our words, because I an not a humanist.</p>

<p>Respectfully, you have regrettably missed the entire point of what I’ve said.</p>

<p>I would never dream of attempting to indoctrinating children against their religion. </p>

<p>I don’t understand why Christians are so quick to assume that others want to tear down their beliefs. Quite the contrary. Humanists, New Agers, agnostics, even atheists, are generally quite ok with Christians being free to be Christians!</p>

<p>There is a glaring point here that you’ve missed. It is the tendency of Christians to want to make everyone else Christians that non-Christians are against. If Christians would just accept that not everyone wants to be Christian, we could all coexist peacefully!</p>

<p>But alas, as Drossel pointed out, that is indeed a part of being an evangelical - it is part of their faith to try to convert others. So I don’t see any solution forthcoming, unfortunately, as long as their faith tells them it’s ok to impose on others what others don’t want.</p>

<p>If Christians didn’t try to impose their views on others, I assure you that others would leave them alone. Because, these other belief systems that I mentioned do not have any agenda of converting others. Agnostics, Pagans, Buddhists, atheists…do not have as part of their faith any interest in converting others. Therein lies the difference.</p>

<p>Christians tend to automatically assume that others are trying to take away their faith because that is what they routinely do to others.</p>

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I don’t know where you get your bizarre ideas. Who do you think was best known for taking care of the lepers and other untouchables in India? A CATHOLIC NUN – Mother Theresa.</p>

<p>If you had the slightest interest you could research Catholic Relief Services for their work throughout the world <a href=“http://www.crs.org/[/url]”>http://www.crs.org/&lt;/a&gt; , Catholic Charities for their wonderful work in the US, Parish outreach programs, programs for women experiencing unexpected pregnancy, and on and on.</p>

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<a href=“http://www.crs.org/worldaidsday/quotes.cfm[/url]”>http://www.crs.org/worldaidsday/quotes.cfm&lt;/a&gt;

<a href=“http://www.crs.org/about_us/newsroom/press_releases/releases.cfm?ID=352[/url]”>http://www.crs.org/about_us/newsroom/press_releases/releases.cfm?ID=352&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I could keep going, but I don’t want to tie up the entire thread with all of the good things the Catholic Church is doing throughout the world. I work with a woman who is an Evangelical Christian. She and her husband work with many organizations to help those in need, including supporting several children in a third world country.</p>

<p>The people that I know who are DOING the good works you mention, are almost always Christian.</p>