Anti-Gay-Marriage Leader Resigns

Parent Cafe
441

<p>*I’ve heard it said that there are no atheists in foxholes. Who knows? I do think that it is human nature to turn to a higher power during times of duress. *</p>

<p>Yes- I have heard that saying as well
As a ( I guess I don’t really have a term for it) however- I have meditated drawing on shared energy during times of duress- such as when my daughter was fighting for her life in the hospital- but I don’t pray to a deity.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.religioustolerance.org%5B/url%5D”>http://www.religioustolerance.org</a></p>

442

<p>

At least you are non-judgemental and don’t generalize. [Insert sarcasm here.]</p>

443

<p>“someone who decides to “drop Catholicism” probably wasn’t very Catholic to begin with.”</p>

<p>You are mistaken. You know nothing about me. I went to Catholic school for 6 years, I went to Mass 3 times a week, I prayed fervently for salvation, I prayed to the saints, I refused to step foot in Baptist churches, I collected ‘holy cards’ … oh, I could go on and on. Please do not presume to judge how ‘Catholic’ I was.</p>

<p>Also, please do not equate giving up Catholicism for giving up faith in God. I have never given up my faith in God, and, in fact, I am grateful to my Catholic upbringing for providing me with a basic foundation about God which I have retained.</p>

<p>It is the DOGMA, the man-made rules, the organization, of the Catholic church that I have rejected.</p>

<p>I was told 'only baptized Catholics go to heaven;<br>
Baptists, Methodists, etc. are ‘fallen away Catholics and do not’. I<br>
questioned this as a child. It did not seem fair. </p>

<p>Then, I became a born-again Christian. At first, it seemed a welcome, joyous experience, without all the Catholic dogma. But after awhile, I began to see the same pattern: only born-again Christians go to heaven. Catholics? No, they are a cult because they worship idols. Mormons? No, they are not even Christian, since they believe in the validity of another book in addition to the<br>
bible. And forget the Buddhists, Pagans, and New Agers - they are ALL<br>
satanically misled! </p>

<p>This was a complete turnoff to me. Yes, I got alot of good from my<br>
years going to bible study and to various born-again churches. I still<br>
have my dog-eared amplified bible with all its highlighting, and I learned
alot. </p>

<p>But, what they taught me, to trust in the Holy Spirit, is what I am trying
to do in my life. Problem is, if I believe my guidance to go beyond the<br>
boundaries of their little box, I am labeled ‘satanic’. Or, if I share with them my decision to drop Catholicism, it is assumed that I was never a ‘true’ Catholic to begin with!</p>

444

<p>“I don’t know where you get your bizarre ideas. Who do you think was best known for taking care of the lepers and other untouchables in India? A CATHOLIC NUN – Mother Theresa.”</p>

<p>I don’t think cgm meant that there are no Christians/Catholics doing great things. Of course there are many! If I may be so presumptuous to speak for cgm, I interpreted her words to mean that there are many Christians who give lip service only. </p>

<p>I actually agree that the Catholic church does a lot of good in terms of true giving. I think that is wonderful! It’s really the born-again Christians that tend to attach more of a conversion criteria when they give. Again, just a generalization based on my own observation.</p>

<p>Obviously Mother Theresa was a wonderful example of the ‘true’ Christian. So was Ghandi.</p>

445

<p>“Christians tend to automatically assume that others are trying to take away their faith because that is what they routinely do to others.”</p>

<p>OK, sorry if that sounded judgmental. Please allow me to rephrase:</p>

<p>In answer to Drossel’s allegations that non-Christians are trying to inject a secular ‘anti-Christian’ agenda to displace Christianity, I would surmise that Christians MAY be jumping to conclusions a bit. Is it possible that they might be mistaken in their interpretation of the motivation behind the non-christians’ actions? Perhaps, since it is part of the foundation of belief among Christians that it is acceptable to try to take away others’ religions in favor of converting them to Christianity, they are assuming that non-Christians operate the same way; when, in fact, non-Christians simply do not have that as part of their agenda, since Christianity is one of the few prominent religions that does not respect others’ rights to their own religions. Example: I’ve never heard of any Hindu or Buddhist or Pagan or New Age missions to convert others to their faiths, much less wars fought over these religions (someone will undoubtedly correct me if I’m wrong here). So, perhaps Christians are simply arriving at a false conclusion based on their own perspective. Perhaps they can attempt to understand that other religions just don’t operate the way they do.</p>

<hr>

<p>was that better?</p>

446

<p>Lealdragon, I really wasn’t talking about you when I said that someone who decides to drop Catholicism wasn’t very Catholic. I was referring to the people who decided they were atheists.</p>

<p>I apologize if I insulted you. Faith is a tricky matter, and can be difficult to talk about IRL, let alone on a discussion forum. Everyone has a personal faith journey through life – even if their path leads them to be agnostic or atheist. I have known people who condemn others because their faith is different, and I think that’s wrong. Actually, my comment about leaving Catholicism is more spiritual – if one truly has faith, how can one lose it? But not all faith can be contained in one Church. One of my favorite passages is from John 14.

I believe that God is the original “Big Tent” party, and there’s room for everyone.</p>

447

<p>Thanks, sj! I agree completely! And it’s very refreshing to hear that you think there’s ‘room for everyone.’</p>

<p>I think there is a distinction between religion and spirituality. They often overlap, but one can exist without the other.</p>

448

<p>Here’s something from a discussion on another forum, that I think is applicable here:</p>

<hr>

<p>what must be taken into consideration is that not<br>
everyone interprets words the same, because they are not in the same state
of being mentally, emotionally and spiritually. A hundred, or even a<br>
thousand people can read the same words and interpret them differently,<br>
even though each has prayed fervently to God for guidance. Hence, so many<br>
denominations all claiming to seek guidance from God yet arriving at<br>
different conclusions. </p>

<p>I think the problem is when people try to put truth, and God, in a box. It
is like the 4 blind men who encountered the elephant, the elephant<br>
representing God. </p>

<p>The 1st blind man touches the elephant’s leg and says ‘An elephant is like
a tree’. </p>

<p>The 2nd blind man touches the elephant’s tail and says ‘No, you are wrong;
an elephant is clearly like a rope’. </p>

<p>The 3rd blind man touches the elephant’s side and says ‘You are both<br>
wrong! An elephant is quite clearly like a wall!’ </p>

<p>and the 4th blind man touches the elephant’s trunk and says ‘You are ALL<br>
wrong! I alone am right; an elephant is definitely like a snake’. </p>

<p>I see religions like the 4 blind men, quarreling about who is ‘right’ in<br>
their perception of God when in fact each of them has a PIECE OF THE TRUTH
and no one has ALL THE TRUTH. </p>

<p>God, and truth, is like a multi-faceted diamond - there are many sides,<br>
many angles, and when held to the light erupts into prisms of magnificent<br>
colorful rainbows. </p>

<p>It is sitting on 1 side of this beautiful diamond and claiming to know all
there is to know, that keeps one from experiencing the beauty of the<br>
rainbows that come from that diamond.</p>

449

<p>Lealdragon, just a couple of days ago, S2 and I were discussing faith in the car and the elephant discussion came up! It just seems funny that you brought it up here. :)</p>

450

<p><<if christians=“” didn’t=“” try=“” to=“” impose=“” their=“” views=“” on=“” others,=“” i=“” assure=“” you=“” that=“” others=“” would=“” leave=“” them=“” alone.=“”>></if></p>

<p>Just not true in all cases. For instance, when my kids were in public schools these “others” imposed views on my kids which directly contradict our faith routinely and consistently. They believe their way of viewing the world is the only and best way, and that they have the right (because they presently have control of the public schools) to teach this way to my children.</p>

451

<p>It is interesting that if what you say about Christianity is true: that according to Catholics if you not catholic your going to hell and according to born against if your not born again your going to hell and so on, it is very strong contrast to Judaism, where if you are not Jewish you are still destined for a good afterlife if you live a good life. Judaism even puts very stringent rules for converts, so in my jewish upbringing I guess I was never exposed to the idea that non Jews go to hell, because Judaism doesnt ascribe to that belief.</p>

452

<p>golani: Catholics don’t believe non-Catholics are going to hell. It’s not true that we believe this. In fact, our belief is the same as the one you noted above. It makes for good anti-Catholic propaganda, though, to spread this untruth. ;)</p>

453

<p>It used to be taught, HH. I don’t know how you missed that, if you are old enough to remember Vatican II. When it was brought up here, it was brought up historically, as I am sure you’re aware. Golani: Some Protestants still teach that Catholics are going to hell, some don’t. My denomination doesn’t, for example.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>HH, another crock. It’s the theocrats who aren’t being fundamentally honest. My friend who thinks it’s OK to rob non-Christians of their votes? I doubt she’d call herself a theocrat, but that’s what she is. The teacher who uses her government job to force children to pray her religion’s prayers against their parents’ wishes? I doubt she calls herself a theocrat, either, but again, that’s what she is, if she thinks it’s ok for the government to force her religion on people and is taking active steps to make it so. People don’t call themselves theocrats anymore than people call themselves racists, but it doesn’t mean that theocrats and racists don’t exist.</p>

<p>Many of the people who are concerned about theocracy are no more humanists than you are. Many of the Founding Fathers were deeply religious. They had no interest in “tearing down religion.” Indeed, Madison himself would have told you that people are more likely to be sincerely religious if it’s a choice they make, using the free will that God gave them, rather than state-enforced. </p>

<p>I resent you implying that I am not a Christian (just as you’ve previously implied that I’m a socialist) because I am concerned about preserving the values on which our country was founded. The fact that you do so, tends to support the need to be alarmed at the future of freedom of religion in this country, rather than the opposite.</p>

454

<p>“Just not true in all cases. For instance, when my kids were in public schools these “others” imposed views on my kids which directly contradict our faith routinely and consistently. They believe their way of viewing the world is the only and best way, and that they have the right (because they presently have control of the public schools) to teach this way to my children.”</p>

<p>OK, I stand corrected. I just thought of evolution. It’s being taught in the public schools as factual, when it is just a theory. (correct me if I’m wrong here.) By evolution I am mean consciousness springing from matter, instead of intelligent design of matter…to to be confused with adaptation, which is a different issue entirely and does in fact have scientific basis. Of course, I wouldn’t want the biblical account presented as being factual either. It’d be nice if all the different theories could be presented as such: theories.</p>

<p>It just goes back to the whole idea of having our kids spend so much of their day in the company of people whose views might not reflect our own, at an age when the kids are so impressionable.</p>

<p>I don’t see how the public schools can ever please everyone. I really just don’t see a solution to it.</p>

<p>This is one of the many reasons I homeschooled my son until he was old enough to discern for himself what he wants to believe.</p>

455

<p>“was never exposed to the idea that non Jews go to hell, because Judaism doesnt ascribe to that belief.”</p>

<p>See what I mean? It seems to be Christianity that has that elitism.</p>

<p>I’m glad to hear Judaism is not like that.</p>

<p>hereshoping: You are correct that Catholics don’t teach that non-Catholics go to ‘hell.’ However, they do teach that non-Catholics do not go to heaven. I was brought up Catholic and was taught that non-Catholics go to a place called ‘Limbo’ where they don’t burn like the bad people in hell, but they never get to ‘see the face of God.’</p>

<p>The born-agains, otoh, do teach that non-born-agains burn in hell.</p>

<p>Dang, God must either be awfully cruel or awfully weak to lose most of the population to the ‘devil.’</p>

456

<p>But is that really what mainstream Christianity teaches or is that just something you happened to stumble on to. Basically what I am saying is how indicitave is that of most churches</p>

457

<p>It’s being taught in the public schools as factual, when it is just a theory. *
A theory is just a way of explaining observable events
how we explain * gravity for example- is a * theory*

</p>

458

<p>“Obviously Mother Theresa was a wonderful example of the ‘true’ Christian. So was Ghandi.”</p>

<p>Ha, did no one catch this?</p>

459

<p>“But is that really what mainstream Christianity teaches or is that just something you happened to stumble on to. Basically what I am saying is how indicitave is that of most churches”</p>

<p>Well I can only go by what I’ve observed here in my area and what I’ve read online, but yeah, that’s pretty standard as far as I can tell. Every Christian I’ve ever known believes some variation of it. Some are more compassionate than others about it. For example, some feel bad for all those ‘lost souls’ but they still say that that’s just the way it is. All because of that one line about Jesus being the ‘one way.’ </p>

<p>Which, imo, is subject to interpretation. If he even said that at all.</p>

460

<p>Golani, here’s a good article about the subject, though it’s long on history and a little short on contemporary Protestant thought: <a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;