<p>A church stepping into the realm of politics can be very ambiguous. We should tax all religious institutions like the businesses they are.</p>
<p>Clearly the government should not set up a state religion, but since politics deals with all kinds of moral issues of right and wrong (and best and not as good), churches and other religious institutions have much to say on issues that are in the political realm, and their freedom to exercise their religion should not be abridged, according to the Constitution.</p>
<p>I’m surprised so many found this story interesting! Here’s a comment from The Ace of Spades website that I got a kick out of:</p>
<p>"Biggest Story Of The Century: Some Guy You Never Heard Of Is A Homo
—Ace
At least according to the left, it’s a very, very big story.</p>
<p>Because this guy you never heard of is also an Evangelist you never heard of, and making anti-gay statements you never heard of, while having gay sex with dudes you definitely never heard of.</p>
<p>But it turns out he’s a homo, so suddenly he’s someone you’re going to be hearing a lot about, and, in fact, will become within 24 hours The Most Important Figure On The Religious Right In All Of The History Of The Universe."</p>
<p>Well actually, I had heard of this guy. In fact, my first reaction on seeing the reports was, “isn’t that the guy in Jesus Camp?”</p>
<p>Maybe Haggard is better known to non-evangelicals outside of Colorado. I don’t think I had ever heard of him until the day before this story broke when I read about him endorsing a film about global warming.</p>
<p>Yeah, I have since heard that he was working hard to distinguish himself from the “old guard” evangelicals, like Jim Baker & Jimmy Swaggert. Embracing global warming theories was one way to do that. Embracing crystal meth/gay prostitutes is another way, I suppose.</p>
<p>
C’mon friend. The reason for this is quite apparent to me. No one is saying lets publicly approve greedy couples strictly because they are greedy. But they are doing this for gays, and people are up in arms about it. I am not saying I agree with the objection. I am saying these people have a point and that we are gonna hafta deal with it honestly.</p>
<p>I dunno. I’m just unwilling to make these folks out to be this world-wide pariah. They are not. They are a family trying to make it like the rest of us, and just because they believe homosexuality is a sin is no reason to hate them, especially since this is not a novel view. It is a view spanning thousands of years and I think it has a lot of biology supporting it too. Shoot. I can easily see how someone might reject homosexuality while not being some mean guy. Family, for example, is very important to many people. They want their kids to have children and live in a home where both parents, male and female, reflect who and what they are as much as possible. I can easily see how a parent would be crushed if their kids said they were gonna live in some way different from what they know to be the “right” way. This is just easy to see, and I guarantee that the majority of readers who lurk around here on CC, and who are reading this post, are nodding their heads in silent agreement. We may hurl insults at them so that they are afraid to speak openly, but all that accomplishes is to make us into thought Nazis. These people are going to exist anyway, and in huge numbers, unless we stop abusing language and playing other dirty tricks and deal honestly with their concerns.</p>
<p>I also read Haggard’s wife’s message to her fellow church members, and I hafta say, I am really touched by it all. In fact, I am touched by Haggard’s response to the whole thing. The guy messed up, and now, he is just laying still and letting people everywhere take their shots at him– no resistance. He is even publicly thanking his accuser for bringing all this to light, forcing him to finally deal with it. Gotta respect that. There are so many people laughing and dancing because the “wicked man” has fallen, and yet there he is agreeing that he deserves it all, even while maintaining that his behavior is sin. I feel compassion toward him, not pleasure. I wish him well. I sincerely hope his family grows stronger, not weaker, through it all. I applaud his wife, and wish to uphold his children. That’s how I see the thing. Sorry if anyone is offended.</p>
<p>LOL, StickerShock. I had never heard of him either.</p>
<p><these people=“” are=“” going=“” to=“” exist=“” anyway,=“” and=“” in=“” huge=“” numbers,=“” unless=“” we=“” stop=“” abusing=“” language=“” other=“” dirty=“” tricks=“” deal=“” honestly=“” with=“” their=“” concerns.=“”></these></p>
<p>Btw, from the Catholic Catechism:</p>
<p><the number=“” of=“” men=“” and=“” women=“” who=“” have=“” deep-seated=“” homosexual=“” tendencies=“” is=“” not=“” negligible.=“” they=“” do=“” choose=“” their=“” condition;=“” for=“” most=“” them=“” it=“” a=“” trial.=“” must=“” be=“” accepted=“” with=“” respect,=“” compassion=“” sensitivity.=“” every=“” sign=“” unjust=“” discrimination=“” in=“” regard=“” should=“” avoided.=“” these=“” persons=“” are=“” called=“” to=“” fulfill=“” god’s=“” will=“” lives=“” and,=“” if=“” christians,=“” unite=“” the=“” sacrifice=“” lord’s=“” cross=“” difficulties=“” may=“” encounter=“” from=“” condition.=“”></the></p>
<p>Calling people who believe the above, but will never accept gay marriage (as the Church will never do, no matter who becomes Pope in the years to come) homophobes and bigots is not the way to go to win people over to the cause of greater legal and civil rights for gays.</p>
<p>Exactly, HH. And let’s not forget the outstanding work that the Catholic Church has done in their AIDS hospice ministry. Cardinal O’Conner from NY was a real pioneer in offering medical care and end of life nursing care for the large numebrs of gay men dying from AIDS.</p>
<p>Sad that the church considers homosexuality to be a “condition”, kind of like psoriasis (but I agree with other elements of your post, HH).</p>
<p>Drosselmeier, I can’t imagine anyone being offended by your post. </p>
<p>When I was a teen & didn’t want to go to Mass, I’d complain to my mom about the hypocrites at the Communion rail, like the crooked mayor & his concubine. She’d say, “We’re all sinners, honey, that’s why we’re there.”</p>
<p>Of for God’s sake, Allmusic. Get out a dictionary. There are probably at least 20 definitions for condition. Your choice to compare homosexuality to psoriasis shows your bias — not the Catholic Church’s.</p>
<p>Take your choice, SS. Which one do you like, that fits your Church meaning more (you don’t like “disease or physical ailment”, I take it)?</p>
<p>con·di·tion (kn-dshn)
n.
- A mode or state of being: “The Organization Man survives as a modern classic because it captures a permanent part of our social condition” Robert J. Samuelson. See Synonyms at state.
a. A state of health.
b. A state of readiness or physical fitness.
3. A disease or physical ailment: a heart condition.
4. Social position; rank.
5. One that is indispensable to the appearance or occurrence of another; prerequisite: Compatibility is a condition of a successful marriage.
6. One that restricts or modifies another; a qualification.
7. conditions Existing circumstances: Conditions in the office made concentration impossible.
8. Grammar The dependent clause of a conditional sentence; protasis.
9. Logic A proposition on which another proposition depends; the antecedent of a conditional proposition.
10. Law
a. A provision making the effect of a legal instrument contingent on the occurrence of an uncertain future event.
b. The event itself.
11. An unsatisfactory grade given to a student, serving notice that deficiencies can be made up by the completion of additional work.
12. Obsolete Disposition; temperament.</p>
<h1>1 is just fine. You had to move a bit further down to categorize the Catechism’s word choice in a disparaging way, I see.</h1>
<p>Maybe you should take Dross’ advice and stop abusing language to make a nasty point…</p>
<p>“The guy messed up, and now, he is just laying still and letting people everywhere take their shots at him– no resistance. He is even publicly thanking his accuser for bringing all this to light, forcing him to finally deal with it. Gotta respect that.”</p>
<p>I think contrition is fine. But I’m not sure he knows how he messed up. Was “messing up” giving in to his God-given urges, denying them for so long, lying about them to his wife and family, or spending his life and being paid for preaching against the so-called “sins” of which he was “guilty”? (again, I’m not clear he knows which ones those are.)</p>
<p>I sincerely hope he goes on to a happier life exploring the gay lifestyle, and/or reconciling with his wife and family as a gay man, or exploring the effectiveness and impact of “conversion therapy”, or educating his former congregation and constituency about how his sexuality was not really a matter of his choice but of God’s.</p>
<p>
Mini’s god-given urge: </p>
<p>To get a hand-job and a $200 bag of crystalmeth from a drug-dealing prostitute with a social consciousness narrow enough to make a liberal weep (between selling drugs and sex he’s for gay marriage–that is to say, in liberal speak, the cutting edge entrepreneur and social critic is a great American). </p>
<p>…yeah, the devil, ah… god made him do it, mini.</p>
<p>Haha, what a blow to all my evangelical friends!</p>
<p>“To get a hand-job and a $200 bag of crystalmeth from a drug-dealing prostitute with a social consciousness narrow enough to make a liberal weep (between selling drugs and sex he’s for gay marriage–that is to say, in liberal speak, the cutting edge entrepreneur and social critic is a great American).”</p>
<p>So let’s hear: WHICH was his sin? (Drug addiction is hard: look at Rush! But “sin” is hardly the best word I’d use to describe it? Or is it one of those 10 commandmants - “Thou shalt purchase thy bag of crystal meth, but verily thou shalt not consume it, but place it where it shall never be discovered, Thus Saith the Lord.”)</p>
<p>There’s a lot to chose from mini, but one thing is certain: it is the man’s sin that he betrayed himself and those he loved, not God’s…God did not make him hook-up with a prostitute at a hotel for a cheap and tawdry sexual thrill and a pathetic drug score. </p>
<p>He was not being denied the love of this bottom-feeder, he was caught seeking a cheap thrill…exploring the dark-side of sexual pleasure.</p>
<p>Such may be the stuff of your divine urges; but I would think that is peculiar to both your urges and those you, in your singular metaphysics, attribute to god…or the devil–but we all know, in your case it would be the fault of God, Jesus or those who claim to love them.</p>