<p>Our kids have a gay aunt and a gay uncle. We never talked to our kids about the need to accept homosexuals; we just treated the gay members of the family like other family members. Our kids, despite never having been preached to about tolerance, love their aunt and uncle and are appalled that anyone would dislike someone only because he or she is homosexual.</p>
<p>We conclude that, indeed, intolerance of gays is learned, not innate.</p>
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<p>I think it’s a sexist believe and, yes, I do believe patriarchal religions are sexist at their core, although not all Catholics are sexists. Okay, so maybe it’s not “simple.” </p>
<p>My primary objection is when people who oppose gay rights claim they are not homophobes, or others come to their defense. It’s not up to the person who is working to deny rights to others to decide if they are bigots! It’s up to the people whose rights are being denied to decide. It’s just so frustrating. </p>
<p>I agree with you on the familiarity argument. Before our son came out to his very conservative Aunt and Uncle, we (his parents) spoke to them very briefly but firmly. We spelled out that they were not to try to “save” our son, not to send literature or books, not to try to get a conversation going about it. We also acknowledged that they were free to feel and pray anyway they wanted but being around their nephew hinged on behaving themselves in a loving, supportive way. They agreed to that and have been very good about it. And I suspect that loving their nephew as they do has made it at least a bit harder to fight against gay rights.</p>
<p>I’m not a parent. </p>
<p>But I thought this **[■■■](<a href=“http://www.fmylife.com/kids/3842566]■■■[/url][/b”>http://www.fmylife.com/kids/3842566)[/b</a>] is of humorous relevance to this thread:</p>
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I think this was smart–you didn’t demand that they convert, either. And you’re right about rights–it’s much harder to fight against something if you have to consider how it will affect somebody you care about.</p>
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<p>Yes, I’m sure you’re right. I knew a 5’2", 115 pound straight guy very well, once upon a time. It was quite difficult for that person, as I remember. By contrast, being that small as a gay man hasn’t stopped my son from finding people who are interested in him. My concern is more for his safety.</p>
<p>I tend to agree with Hunt’s view of things, that it is better not to put labels like homophobe or the like on someone automatically. Assuming that Aunt Joy and Uncle Ben who go to mass every Sunday are homophobes because of their faith is going to poison the waters I feel, it is better to give them a chance without prejudging them. They may believe being gay is a moral sin or whatever, but see how they deal with it and the child before deciding that. Obviously, someone who has issues with gays is homophobic, whether it is religious belief or some other cause (homophobic means someone disapproves of being gay), but the real question is how they deal with it. If they treat your child as a leper, if they refuse to attend events where the child is, if they spend all their time talking to other family members and badmouthing the child, or insist on sending the child tracts showing how being gay is a disease, etc, then at that point realize there is nothing you can do about it, and deal with it appropriately. </p>
<p>I am talking from personal experience with another issue, you cannot label or judge people by their labels or faith. I had to deal with something of a similar nature, and some of the more loving, supportive people were people who considered themselves religious, while some of the worst types to deal with were supposed liberals, live and let live (until they had to deal with it, that is), you never know…and if you go in assuming something, the person will read that and could get their back up, even if they otherwise might have ended up okay. To me it is about actions, not labels, that matter.</p>
<p>For the poster with the neighbor’s D that the neighbor feels is not gay:</p>
<p>“But, the question that’s been nagging me is: we aim for a world in which parents, family and friends can be loving and supportive- and strangers can accept. But, what if an educated, tolerant parent truly believes something else is behind this, something psychological or emotional, not sexual identity? Does anyone have any thoughts about this?”</p>
<p>Time will tell. Yes, it is possible for people to label themselves gay who are not or trans or whatever, if they find a group that they otherwise found some sort of connection with. I worked with a therapist who was a gay woman, and she in the course of things I was working through talked about having patients who would come in asking if they were gay, and often it had more to do with life circumstances then their identity, and she would tell them what her opinion was, but also would tell them something I think is wise, that time would tell that. If the D is not really gay, but rather found comfort in the world of gay women, eventually as she goes down the line it will probably dawn on her that she isn’t really gay (though she could be bi and for whatever reasons women are more attractive…)…but as someone who has dealt with issues in my life roughly analagous , as they say you don’t know until you have walked down that road, it isn’t something you discover living in your head:).</p>
<p>If the mom really thinks the D has issues, maybe she should see about her D getting counseling for other issues, if she has been depressed, isolated, whatever, might help her work through those issues. But if the D seems happy with where she is, let it ride itself out to where it ends.</p>
<p>And Skyhook, thank you. Brought tears to my eyes. I guess It Gets Better can apply to us all, as individuals and as a society.</p>
<p>Hunt, thank you for post 81. This seems to me a good topic to explore and potentially beneficial to families reading the thread. It is very distressing to me to have a rift in my own family. I don’t see it as a good example to my children.</p>
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<p>I agree with much of what you are writing above but want to approach it in a different way. I think I can safely say that many individuals realize they are gay at a very young age and may in subtle and not so subtle ways communicate this realization to their parents. If parents realize it is possible they have a gay child, it may impact their child rearing decisions. If the parents are straight, it may suddenly open their eyes to the amount of anti-gay bias everyone encounters, almost unavoidably, just on a day to day basis: in tabloid headlines at the grocery, on the evening news, in sitcoms, in movies, etc. Probably we all want to raise children who are good people and who feel as though they are good people. Unless you decide to raise your possibly gay child off the grid, there are limits to how protected that child can be from prejudice. And obviously that child, if gay, is going to have to learn to deal with prejudice. What is the best way to teach that life skill? What is the balance between protecting the child and helping the child learn to cope with the world into which he was born?</p>
<p>Using your example of the Catholic Church: does it make sense to raise a possibly gay child in the Catholic Church? How do you handle catechism classes, etc? How do you discuss the fact that those in authority in the Church feel there is something intrinsically wrong with your very being? I absolutely do not mean this to get into a heated debate about Catholicism. I just want to calmly point out that it may occur to a parent that this is not the healthiest environment for a possibly gay child. (Is there someone who does think this is a healthy environment for the possibly gay child?) And that an Episcopal church with a female priest and gay Bishop and several same sex couples in the congregation will be a much more comfortable and appropriate religious environment in which to raise a possibly gay child. Some parents may not feel it makes sense to create a situation in which they have to explain to a young child that those in positions of authority in their lives are just plain wrong in the views they are expressing.</p>
<p>Does that mean parents of a possibly gay child will avoid Catholics in their social lives? I would hope not. But will parents of a possibly gay child knowingly invite guests into their home who would, in the course of an evening, discuss supposed biblical strictures against homosexuality? It may be pretty easy for the parents to decide those aren’t individuals they want in their social circle any longer because they feel their presence is not healthy to their possibly gay child’s emotional development. With relatives it will not be so easy. What is the best way to deal with relatives who believe homosexuality is a sin? I agree that it is best to preserve the relationship if at all possible. How does one do that? Does one tell the possibly gay child these relatives believe something different than we do? Does one tell the child these relatives are wrong in their beliefs? What does it mean to a child to understand part of his family feels there is something “wrong” about him? It seems to me very different to read something in a tabloid than to see it under your parents’ roof and that home needs to be a very safe place. </p>
<p>I really would like to discuss how it is possible to keep family members who view homosexuality as a sin in our gay children’s lives without damaging our children’s developing sense of self worth.</p>
<p>Cornmuffin: if you are still reading and have time, I really wish you would give your opinion.</p>
<p>If parents realize it is possible they have a gay child, it may impact their child rearing decisions.
…does it make sense to raise a possibly gay child in the Catholic Church?</p>
<p>If a family has a tradition of association with a particular belief system that may not be welcoming to all- or may not allow for freedom of individuality- then the decision to extract the family is huge. I think what strikes me is the idea that these decisions would be made after one realizes a child is or could be gay. Some should be made as part of our usual adult lives. </p>
<p>Whether or not I even had kids, I wouldn’t want guests who would turn the conversation to discuss “biblical strictures against homosexuality” any more than turn toward racism, intimate details, extreme social views, etc. (An intellectual or observational discussion is another matter.) If it did, I’d personally feel a responsibility to, in one of a dozen ways, get off the subject fast. </p>
<p>Many kids and adults will face prejudice or judgment no matter what. Based on physical characteristics, disabilities or special needs, personality- the potential list is endless and “acceptance” is always a blessing. I wonder if what’s important is the lessons we can teach within our own homes. I wonder if helping a child to become strong, sure and productive- and tolerant- is more than sheltering. I wonder if it has to include understanding that not everyone will be fair, in life.</p>
<p>I think tolerance is a very difficult thing to achieve. It’s difficult to even perceive how we judge or pre-judge others. But, yes, if my kid were attacked, darned right I’d become the lioness.</p>
<p>I see that EK4 has made (in post 75) the point I was about to make. She said: “For some people it’s more the person than the sex”. More than a few of my daughter’s friends have been involved with members of both sexes. I also know of several men who experimented with gay sex (back in the 70s) who have been happily (apparently) married for years now. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of interest in sexuality research these days (so I don’t have hard data), but it certainly appears to me that most people are somewhere along a spectrum from completely hetero- to completely homo- sexual–and that where a person is on that spectrum can be fairly fluid.</p>
<p>"There doesn’t seem to be a lot of interest in sexuality research these days (so I don’t have hard data), but it certainly appears to me that most people are somewhere along a spectrum from completely hetero- to completely homo- sexual–and that where a person is on that spectrum can be fairly fluid. "</p>
<p>There is a lot of research being done on sexuality and what has been found is yes, that sexuality can be fluid, that it isn’t as rigid as some may believe. That said, though, there is a problem with statements like that, where the religious right types with their claim that being with a same sex partner is a choice, will point to that and say “see, even scientists are saying anyone can be with anyone, so therefore if gays want to get married, they can marry an opposite sex partner, etc”,and that is trying to take real research and mold it to fit their religious beliefs.</p>
<p>Sexuality is and can be fluid, but the thing is, it depends on the people and also what that fluidity is. There are gay men and women who occasionally have sexual flings with opposite sex partners, yet whom otherwise are pretty much totally gay in orientation (I am using gay for both men and women here, though some tend to use it only for men). There are also issues of emotional bonding and such, where people might be able to enjoy having sex with someone of a different sex (or same sex), but otherwise is drawn to one or the other sex. </p>
<p>Some people can also be fluid, in the sense that they go through life seemingly oriented one way and then at another stage of life, seem to change. </p>
<p>The problem with what the religious claim is that ultimately, most people are oriented mostly one way or the other, and it isn’t a choice, that part is not fluid. Ironically, the same people will agree with you if you say someone doesn’t choose who they fall in love with, but on the other hand will say that if someone is attracted/falls in love with a same sex person, it is ‘choice’ (they also are saying in effect that sexual attraction and love are the same thing, where with anyone you can find someone sexually attractive, happens all the time, but you aren’t attracted to them as a partner/mate…).</p>
<p>Studies do reflect this complexity, but it also has confirmed that the fluidity tends to be rather limited with most people, that only a relatively small group “in the middle of the continuum” is truly able to form relationships with either sex like that. The fluidity, in other words, is bound within a certain range; a straight man or woman might be able to have a same sex fling, for example, but that doesn’t change their basic orientation, whereas some people can swing between same/opposite sex relationships, full relationships, and do so <em>shrug</em>.</p>
<p>Personally, I would hope that someday that whatever people do in their relationships, who they find attractive/sleep with/partner with, etc, is up to them, as long as they aren’t hurting anyone or as they used to say “scaring the horses”, others can give them a smile and say “that’s nice” and base stigma strictly on harm, like someone having sex with a child or coerced sex or the like.</p>
<p>Hi Booke72… I just found out my college age son is gay and like young was totally shocked.
I can’t private message you as I am new to this site & don’t have enough posts yet. I was wondering how things are going for you and your son. I’d appreciatE any advice you might have for me…thanks!</p>
<p>just a heads up mm2mom—this thread is two years old. Perhaps you could start a new thread?</p>
<p>Thanks musicamusica…just floundering around on her3!!</p>
<p>@ sing me- Actually I feel perfectly comfortable thinking that my child will have a healthy sex life as a STRAIGHT young man. You can’t say that its ok not to think about it, if it hurts you to think about it and/ or causes you grief that something isn’t right about the natural order of things. Homosexuality isn’t being taken as seriously as it should be. In fact its being taken too lightly. I have a lot more to say, would anyone care to hear?</p>