<p>I am looking for anyone that is doing a dual or concurrent degree in MT and Engineering. I see that a few colleges offer such a degree and I am interested how it works and if it is a BFA or BA in MT.</p>
<p>Britbrat, in the other thread you started no such dual program was identified. The dual programs the colleges offered were BFAs in other disciplines besides MT. And those took up to six years to complete. Have you since found a school that offers this combo?</p>
<p>Here is where I first got the idea. Hope you can muddle through the info better than I.</p>
<p>[UM</a> School of Music, Theatre & Dance - Dual Degree Programs](<a href=“http://www.music.umich.edu/departments/dual_degrees.htm]UM”>http://www.music.umich.edu/departments/dual_degrees.htm)</p>
<p>I can say with almost 100% certainty that currently there are no UMich BFA MTs also majoring in engineering. UMich does not offer a BA in MT.</p>
<p>SeniorMom08. I think if you read this page you will clearly see that they DO off it.</p>
<p>[UM</a> School of Music, Theatre & Dance - Department of Musical Theatre](<a href=“http://www.music.umich.edu/departments/mustheatre/]UM”>http://www.music.umich.edu/departments/mustheatre/)</p>
<p>Sorry…offer it</p>
<p>BritBrat1961, the page with the info on dual degrees is a generic page for the UM School of Music. I too would be very surprised if a UM MT is currently or has ever also majored in engineering, and have not heard of any student who is doing or has done so. </p>
<p>As far as a credit breakdown goes, the UM BFA in MT has a minimum requirement of 91 credit hours of classes in musical theater, theater, music (voice, theory, and piano), and dance. If a student were to take the maximum credits (18) per semester over 8 semesters, they would have a total of 144 credits. That leaves 53 credits left to complete the engineering major, without considering that the out of class requirements for BFA MTs are extremely extensive and that taking an 18 credit courseload for all 8 semesters is probably not a great idea for ANYONE, let alone a BFA MT whose instrument is their body/voice. That’s not to say that the degrees couldn’t be completed together in an extended period of time, but consider that tuition alone for UM in the 2008-09 year is around $33,000 for out of state students and with college tuition’s absurd increase rate that figure will only skyrocket further. That, for me, was a huge deterrent from double majoring at all - that my family and I simply cannot afford for me to stay at school for any longer than 4 years!</p>
<p>For the record, when I looked into double majoring at Michigan (BFA in Musical Theater and a BA in a liberal arts type major from the College of Literature, Science, and the Arts), the answer I got was that almost all double majors between SMTD and LSA take between 10 and 12 semesters to complete the two degrees. Consider that a BA in something like English or History requires far fewer credits than a program like engineering.</p>
<p>An example - there is a current guy MT at Michigan who should have graduated with the class of 2008 this past May; however, he is staying on for a fifth year to finish up his BM in Voice. Michigan’s classical voice program is a pre-professional type program comparable in rigor to BFA MT, engineering, architecture, etc. This guy is finishing both the degrees in 10 semesters and there is considerable overlap between the two. With something like engineering where the degree requirements do not overlap at all it would only take longer to complete.</p>
<p>britbrat…when you showed this link on another thread, I mentioned that I am highly doubtful that a BFA in MT could be combined with a degree in engineering. Perhaps that dual degree is combining engineering with a major within music which can be done at many schools, though sometimes over five years. The nature of the BFA in MT program and the engineering program tend not to mix in terms of the sheer number of required courses per year in each program, not to mention that MTers also put in huge hours for productions.</p>
<p>Has your son looked into environmental science…a BA? Perhaps that can be combined with MT or at least a minor in environmental science.</p>
<p>Why don’t you call UMich’s MT department and ask if a dual degree is possible with engineering and let us know what they say. Even IF it is possible, there will be very very few schools where this is true and so given how hard UMich’s MT program is to get into, your son would need way more options for his college list and the kinds of degrees he might seek that correlate with his interests.</p>
<p>I just don’t see how it can be done concurrently. The engineering majors we have at the university where I work are busy from morning until night.</p>
<p>This is directly off the website page from MT…not the general music page.</p>
<p>As part of the degree, students have numerous opportunities to learn about career strategies,audition techniques, and a wide range of performance skills. Studying at Michigan also presents opportunities to choose among hundreds of classes outside the performing arts. In fact, Michigan offers a rare dual degree program in which you can work on the Bachelor of Fine Arts degree and a Bachelor of Arts or Bachelor of Science degree simultaneously. All of this combines to make Michigan’s Department of Musical Theatre a unique place for the aspiring musical theatre professional to begin a career.</p>
<p>So what do they mean. I called admissions and they said it was very possible. Are they possibly using the crossovers of electives and gen ed classed for both degrees reducing the amount required? With my son’s AP credits that they will accept, he will have the first 17 engineering credits satisfied before he even begins. Penn State and Syracuse U offer a similar program. Is it possible that these programs are very new and noone has explored them yet?</p>
<p>Thanks soozievt, Yes we did look into the environmental eng degree and as I said in the previous thread, 17 of the eng credits (which is the entire first semester) has already been satisfied with the AP credits earned. When I read both schools, and I will clarify when I visit next month, there is crossover and I think they must apply that. Humanities courses and electives may be being credited to both so that they are not double done. I first found out about such a degree from a teacher at my son’s school who’s son went to Carnegie Mellon and did a dual degree. I don’t want to go around and around with this and that is why I started a new thread asking if anyone was actually doing it because otherwise it is just a lot of speculation.
I will see if I can find an OCHSA student who is at any of the schools that can report back. That might be helpful until I can get to the actual schools and ask the questions. We have appts. for all 3 schools next month, so much more will be revealed.</p>
<p>Britbrat</p>
<p>My apologies for giving out incorrect information. My husband and I had a very hands-off approach when our son was going through the application and audition process and sometimes my lack of knowledge rears it’s head. Best of luck to you and your son. I think the issue of double majoring will clarify itself for the both of you as time goes on.</p>
<p>britbrat…
First, I agree with actormcfamous and also when you read about a dual degree program, I think they may be talking of combining with a double major that is a BA or a BS (like you wrote above) and not doubling with ENGINEERING with the BFA. That is what I am asking here. I have seen double majors (a BA in a liberal arts subject) with a BFA or a minor with a BFA but not a combo of Engineering with a BFA in MT. I would find out if that exact combo can be done. If so, I don’t think you will find that at many schools and so his college list will be limited if that is the only option/combo he’ll consider. </p>
<p>Also, when I mentioned Environmental Science, I did NOT mean Environmental Engineering. I meant a BA in Environmental Science because perhaps that could be combined with a BFA in MT. It is the combo of enginneering with a BFA in MT that many of us are questioning…not double majoring. </p>
<p>I am familiar with CMU and the dual degree. In fact, I had a client this past cycle who applied to the dual degree at CMU…combining Creative Writing (in Humanities) and a BM in Music Composition. It involved gaining admission from the school that Humanities is in and also admission from the college that Music is in AND admission to the dual degree program itself (three admissions). It also is a five year degree. However, even at CMU, I do not believe one can combine the BFA in MT with Engineering. That’s what some of us are trying to point out…not that double majors are not possible but that a combo of a BFA in MT with Engineering may not be doable. I do not know if you have spoken to those in a BFA in MT degree programs and understand the sheer HOURS involved. Same with an Engineering Program. Schedule-wise, I am not sure how these would be combined. I DO believe that at UMich and some other schools, you CAN combine a BFA in MT with a BA or BS in another subject. I have my doubts if that other subject can be engineering.</p>
<p>PS…like at UMich, a student doing a BFA in MT can do a double major (a BA) in something else at NYU/Tisch. But the second major is not engineering. For example, it could be environmental science.</p>
<p>WOW…what a combination…I can’t even imagine how busy that student would be.</p>
<p>Here is the course outline for Environmental Engineerring at Michigan:
[UM</a> Civil and Environmental Engineering : Program Outline](<a href=“http://cee.engin.umich.edu/prospective/undergrad/programoutline.html]UM”>http://cee.engin.umich.edu/prospective/undergrad/programoutline.html)</p>
<p>There are only nine unrestricted elective hours! </p>
<p>Yes, some AP credits are accepted to get a head start, and some kids are fine moving on to all the physics-heavy coursework in engineering (thermodynamics, etc.) but often new engineering students are advised to get a solid physics foundation by taking the intro physics courses at college, despite the AP grade. If you look at the curriculum closely, it is almost entirely built one course on the other, making taking courses out of synch almost impossible because of pre-reqs. And don’t forget labs. I attended an engineering college myself, and can assure you that engineers have virtually no time in their schedules to fit in courses out of their majors. It’s a killer major, and ten times more rigorous than what bright kids taking lots of AP math & schience classes have ever experienced.</p>
<p>Looking on line at the curriculum schedules for MT degrees, it is also incredibly tight & structured. Students in MT spend more hours in class than other majors, thus cutting into any open time in their schedules to even attend the sections required for a dual major or even a minor. Then add in auditions, rehearsals, etc. & see how many hours are left in a day.</p>
<p>The issue is that the hours do not add up between these two very intensive degree programs. Unless, of course, one has more than 24 hours in a day. </p>
<p>An engineering program and a BFA in MT program…are NOT like regular college majors. These majors require MORE coursework in the major than most college majors. Most college majors are about 35% of one’s coursework. A BFA in MT or an Engineering program or say a BArch program are all specialized degree programs where about 65% of one’s coursework is in the major and is very prescribed and lock step. So, I don’t see in terms of class time in the schedule even, how to combine two programs that require about 65% of one’s total coursework. That is without adding in how in a BFA in MT program, a student goes to class WAY more hours per week than a BA student typically does. Add to that, a BFA in MT requires NUMEROUS hours of rehearsal per week for shows. Add in for an engineering degree…labs and hours of problem sets. This is what is the issue…not a double major itself…it is the combo of these two particular specialized degree programs.</p>
<p>Keep in mind also, as I mentioned on the related thread, that the number of “credit hours” listed for BFA MT courses may not reflect the actual “class hours” which could be much greater. For example, at the MT program my daughter is in, she had 16 “credit hours” and 16.5 “credit hours” fall and spring semesters last year but actual “class hours” were 26 and 27.5 respectively. It is therefore important to check with the school and department to understand the actual time demands.</p>
<p>britbrat, just in case you haven’t received enough advice on this yet, I’ll add my two cents. 
I absolutely understand your concern about your son’s future ability to earn a living in theatre. It’s an entirely reasonable concern and one that a lot of kids (and parents) don’t think about at this point in the journey. The 90-95% unemployment rate at any given time is true, but that’s not the only obstacle, as awful as that might be to hear. Something worse? Oh, my! The reality is that the vast majority of the kids now in theatre programs, and the thousands of hopefuls who will audition with your S through the coming season, will not be able to earn a living onstage, regardless of how talented they may be. Only a very small percentage will ever be in a Broadway show or national tour or regional theatre production in a large city. This is not to say that none of them will ever earn ANY money from doing theatre, but it won’t be enough to sustain them, let alone a family. And hundreds of new kids descend upon NYC every year, to add to the thousands already there! So, I think the fact that you (and hopefully, your son) are exploring options now is wise. </p>
<p>This doesn’t mean that I disagree with the idea that a college degree is valuable, regardless of what the future holds. I do. The difference is that every kid in a BFA or BA program studying theatre knows EXACTLY what they want to do with their lives (many/most kids in other programs don’t!). The sad truth is that most of them will not be able to do what they’ve been trained for and what they love, and be able to earn a decent living for any extended period of time. Expectations need to be realistic, and kids (and parents) need to realize that working in theatre does not only mean making it to Broadway. </p>
<p>Having said all that, I know many kids (including my own D) who have done a BFA and double majored, in many different subjects. I’ve never heard of anyone doing the combination with Engineering. If it is possible, it will most certainly require longer than four years, which is fine as long as you realize it going in. Doing a double major is probably more possible at some schools than others. Scheduling will be an issue. The reason my D was able to accomplish it, in addition to the fact that she was focussed, determined, an excellent student and a hard worker, was that Tisch kids have all their studio classes on three days of the week. She was in studio from 9-6 three days a week. On the other two days, she had her academic classes. So, although she had ~27 hours of studio classes per week, plus her theatre academic classes on the ‘free’ two days, she was able, with much planning, to include other academic classes on those two days. You would have to check how other schools schedule BFA classes, I don’t think I’ve heard of any that do it like Tisch does.</p>
<p>An important consideration, as Susan said, is the fact that there will be very limited choices where a dual program like this is available and, as we all know, the odds of admission for BFA programs are slim, in the big picture of college admissions. So, my advice is, to prepare a long list of questions to ask when you make your visits next month. Be sure to schedule an actual appointment with someone who can answer the questions about this possibility. Ask to see the detailed curriculum for each program, along with the class schedules. Find out how long this has been offered, how many students have actually done it. Ask to speak to current students who may be studying both (more than one if possible). Are there any grads out there who have done it? What are they doing now? Make attempts to contact them, if possible. I think that that is the type of information that you and your son will need in order to make an informed decision that will be the best one for him. I wish you both much luck.</p>
<p>Thank you. I am in the process of making those individual appts. at the colleges for next month and making my list of questions. Although I am extremely grateful for all of the wisdom expressed here, my curiosity still has me wondering why a college such as this would offer a specific dual degree with the MFA in MT and the college of engineering, LSA, or Ross school of business. It would seem senseless to offer such a program if is it virtually impossible to do. Why would they even advertise and promote such an animal if it is not proven to work. I would say take engineering out of the mix if it is not plausible. From what everyone is saying, it must be for those who wish to go to school for much longer than 4 years unless we are all missing something here. Can you understand why I would be questioning it when it is clearly offered that way? Unfortunately, I have not found the outlet to speak to someone who is in the program yet, but I am still trying. I am afraid to pry too deep in case it unearths something that could affect my son’s chances of admission, as he will have to apply to both colleges if he indeed decides to do this. </p>
<p>If he indeed decides that one is more important to him than the other, is it still possible to take dance, voice, performance classes and audition for performances if you are not majoring in their department? In other words, concentrate on the engineering degree and still be a performer, somewhat like the athletes at major colleges do? Just a mom asking a question?</p>
<p>You can call the School of Music department at UM anonymously and never give your name and ask if the BFA in MT program can be done jointly with the Engineering program. </p>
<p>If your son majors in Engineering, it would be possible to take singing, dancing, and acting classes at a school that had a BA in theater or dance or voice but it is doubtful at a school whose theater/MT program is a BFA degree program… that those who are NOT in the BFA program, have access to the BFA classes. </p>
<p>That is why ONE option I suggested to you on the other thread is for your son to major in Engineering at a school where he could double major or minor in Theater in a BA program, not a BFA.</p>