Are 4 years of a foreign language critical for top colleges?

Parents Forum
41

@damon30 I answered this one already in post 11; " Schedule conflicts preclude the student from achieving the recommendations (in which case, the GC should say so in the GC rec)" Usually, similarly-leveled courses in different departments are not offered the same period. But if the only section of AP Calculus conflicts with the only section of Honors Spanish IV, then that’s a legitimate schedule conflict that the GC can address. But if there are multiple sections, but the student chooses to instead triple up on science, then that a personal decision, not a schedule conflict.

To be clear, I did not self study Italian; I learned it as a kid from several years of summer camps. My prep for the AP exam consisted only of a couple of hours going through old exams to understand the structure.

42

The consensus of the discussion here seems to be that the SAT FL subjects tests are to test-out of the college language requirement, not to “get out of” the high school recommended/required FL classes. I’m starting to come around to the argument. (Although I still think classroom language study is no substitute for self-study plus immersion.)

43

Yes, that is the purpose of the subject tests. But in crafting a high school schedule, I am befuddled why one would drop the FL in high school knowing that one has to retake it in college, sometimes after a delay of a year or more. If one doesn’t like FL, better to get it over with in high school and try to place out.

44

Right, it would be nice if all schools were so precise. But, anecdotally, some schools (Brown?) apparently want to see the full four HS years, e.g.

[QUOTE]
My daughter had a similar question her junior year of high school. At the time, she had to make a decision re. her senior schedule—a fourth year of language b** …[/QUOTE}

45

Language study in a US HS is far inferior to an immersion experience. That I will grant you. However, the expense involved with immersion is beyond the means of many families. And many HSs will still require validation of the immersion experience with a placement exam and/or next level class. Additionally, most HSs will have their own FL graduation requirement which is not usually waived by self-study.

Getting back to the above comment, a college student may be able to do a semester/summer abroad, which could be covered by FA. Or the languages offered by the HS do not align with the student’s interests, and colleges often have a wider offering of languages. But I would agree that for the student planning to use the HS FL in college, it makes little sense trading a course slot for a course that is invariably taught by a TA/adjunct/lecturer versus a non-FL course being taught by a full professor who’s a leader in the field. Which is not to say that upper-level FL courses in college can’t be valuable and/or interesting; I’ve taken a few myself along the way.

46

I didn’t completely spell this out before, but the goal was to be able to self-study and “test-out” of the HS FL (application) “recommendation/requirement”. (And also the college requirement.) Some have reported to have been admitted with less than the recommended/required number of FL classes, but this is considered to be a competitive disadvantage by most, regardless of what other classes are taken in their place. As I said, I’m starting to come around to the argument.

47

It’s different to have a legit/rigor schedule conflict versus test out. The top colleges hold the cards. And there’s an expectation of conformity (to their wants and values.) No, you can’t skip the lab sci request because you want to take more humanities. Why view this differently with FL?

Maybe some posters have less competitive colleges in mind. But the more competitive have plenty of kids to choose among.

And I’d note how this thread is going off track from what OPasked. It’s not about an anecdote here or there. Everyone knows “someone” who saw some rule bent. Everyone also knows plenty who did not get into a target college. The latter far outweigh the lucky ones.

Be savvy. Don’t assume. We don’t know how any one or two students presented, that got them in.

48

This. My D got accepted with 3 years to a “requires 3/recommends 4 years” college (not at the tier being talked about by OP but still one with an admit rate in the teens) - but then again, she does have conversational fluency in another two languages noted on her common app. And she meets or exceeds all other “recommendations”. Holistic admissions would have noted all that.

As for “recommended”. Not quite the same topic, but at the Georgetown info session the presenter was talking about how they recommend 3 SAT subject tests - and then said (paraphrasing) “well, ‘recommends’ really means ‘must’; technically you don’t have to - but then you should have a good reason for not doing it and a brilliant application otherwise”. That’s probably a pretty good guide to understanding “recommended”.

49

I would think it depends on the college, and also on the situation at the high school. My son started out taking a FL in freshman year, but all languages except for Spanish got dropped by the time he got finished with year 2. They did not offer year 3/4 of the language he took. He is finishing high school with only two years of FL, and had no problem with college acceptances. His counselor did explain why he did not continue, which may have helped.

50

Do count middle school foreign language- it likely was level one with levels 2, 3, 4 and perhaps 5 in HS. A HS year is a college semester. The final level finished is what matters and the 5th level is just more lit and culture. Schools may recommend or require x levels but note that most admitted students will have the 4 year’s worth of a foreign language. This how it works for UW-Madison, a flagship U which requires 2 years. If most applicants have that 4th year your child will be more competitive if he has it with other factors being equal. There are always exceptions- such as above where circumstances prohibit optimizing the years of one foreign language.

Short answer- yes. Because the other applicants are likely to have it.

Also- that 4th year may mean meeting the college graduation requirements for foreign language without needing to take any in college (UW BA- 4 of one or 3 plus 2 and 3 for a BS- regardless of major in L&S). Taking the 4th year in HS can mean more room for other courses- 4 credits worth per class in college as well.

51

FWIW. Many students at my elder’s private school had 2 foreign languages (3 total), mine among them. It wasn’t unusual among her classmates at HYPS.

The USA tends to undervalue language learning. Four years is more or less the minimum for functional work in a foreign country. Elite schools want to teach world leaders.

52

Great discussion. I think I’ll take our GC’s advice and make sure my D20 takes that 4th year. She won’t be happy this summer as she already is taking a DE Physics course and working part-time but it is what it is if she is looking to apply to some top 25 colleges in the fall.

53

Four years of FL from a typical US HS may be enough to get one a minimum wage job requiring little interaction with the locals in a foreign country, assuming you can get a work visa or get paid under the table. It always amazes me the kids who claim fluency because they completed AP. Remember that for those of us who live on the Continent, proficiency in multiple foreign languages is basically a given for college-bound students.

54

@skieurope Across the board, though, high school courses and proficiency are likely only roughly correlated. It’s more about exposure and practice. My daughter’s good “friend” never took a single English course in his middle-eastern country. After five years in the US, he’s totally bilingual. So much so that people assume he’s from someplace exotic like Seattle or Detroit rather than Saudi Arabia.

55

Yes. Some high schools have AP level foreign language as level 4, while others have it as level 5, while still others have it as level 6. Of course, one school’s courses leading to AP level may have A students earning 3 scores, while another school’s courses leading to AP level may have A students earning 5 scores.

Also, different languages have different difficulty for English speakers, taking different amounts of time and instruction to learn to the same proficiency level. AP score of 5 in Spanish may suggest a higher level of proficiency in Spanish than an AP score of 5 in Chinese may suggest for proficiency in Chinese.

56

Of course. It’s also the reason the typical Scandinavian speaks better English than the typical Spaniard or Brazilian even if they all start learning English in the 3rd grade. Few Swedes expect a tourist to know any Swedish (although a few courtesy words are appreciated, and all their foreign movies and TV shows are subtitled rather than dubbed.

Conversely, I’ve been attending school in New England for 8 years, and nobody has ever assumed I’m a Bostonian. Probably a good thing. :))

57

Asking for x years of FL isn’t about proficiency or concern about jobs abroad. It’s awareness and academic rounding, some preparation to go further, if needed. Not any assumption one will. Or that they’ll have any competency at all, if a tourist here asks for directions in a foreign language.

58

Such a confusing topic but enjoying the discussion. My D20 goes to a high school that has through level 3 Honors French and then AP French as highest level. She took French in middle school 7th and 8th grade, then French 2 Freshman year, French 3 Honors Sophomore year, and now Junior year is taking AP French. Nothing more is offered. Do most people think this is equivalent to “Four Years”? Or should she try to take a community college course or something like that to be an extra year?

59

I was actually researching this myself over the last week or two for my daughter. I told her she should probably seriously think about continuing through a 4th year, based on some of these from admissions officers:

“[. . .] the student studying for four years has a genuine interest in knowledge and education, not just in fulfilling minimum foreign language requirements.” – Matthew Potts, Admissions Counselor, University of Notre Dame

“We give the most consideration to students who have taken the highest level language available at their school.” – Robert Killion, Office of Admissions, Haverford College

“Our recommendation is that, in terms of high school preparation, students take 4 years of a single language” – Steve LeMenager, Director of Admissions, Princeton University

“[. . .] the more years of a language, the better—it shows that the student has gone beyond the minimum requirement.” – Lia Brassord, Assistant Director of Admissions, Smith College

Admission Officers are making distinctions between thousands of overly qualified applicants. In speaking with students about senior year course selection, we encourage students to think carefully before dropping a language.” – Andrea Thomas, Assistant Dean of Admission, Hamilton College

[. . .] depth and mastery are important in the serious study of any discipline. The student who is willing to do more than the minimum is always more appealing.” – Ray Brown, Dean of Admissions, Texas Christian University

“Ideally a student will present at least 4 years of the same language (classical or modern) if the curriculum allows.” – Terry Cowdrey, Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid, St. Lawrence University

“The more years in one language the better it shows commitment and desire for proficiency.” – Dennis O’Driscoll, Director of Admissions, Creighton University

“Three to four years of a language shows follow-through and a deeper level of interest.” – Michael C. Behnke, Vice President for Enrollment, University of Chicago

60

“She took French in middle school 7th and 8th grade, then French 2 Freshman year, French 3 Honors Sophomore year, and now Junior year is taking AP French. Nothing more is offered. Do most people think this is equivalent to “Four Years”?”

Yes, based on my research, a college would consider this to be 4 years. I’m in the same boat - intro to languages 7th grade, French 1 8th grade, etc. Our HS transcripts show a language class from 8th grade for just this reason (plus any accelerated 9th grade classes), and she’ll have 4 years at the end of Junior year.