It’s not 4 years in high school to take it through junior year. It is, however, taking her French to the highest level (AP) available in her high school. She’s fine.
I think this statement nails it. FWIW, your kid will be competing against kids who have met or exceeded “recommended.” If that top college is important to you, I would find a way to get that fourth year of language in. (Note: D20’s school requires foreign language every year. Out of 650 or so graduating, the top kids will have 4+ years of a FL as well as an abundance of AP credits in math, science, history and English from doubling up. And, yes, they get admitted to those elite colleges. Our top 200 or so will have reached AP level in math, science, history and English, as well as language. Many kids take more than one language.)
Re: “recommended”
In most cases with respect to college admissions, “recommended” should be treated as “required” except for those who come from environments where meeting the “recommended” items is not realistically possible, or where the “recommended” items are not commonly done and students are typically not informed in time that such “recommended” items may be needed. Such environments are typically low opportunity ones (e.g. first-generation-to-college student from low income family in a high school where hardly anyone goes to college beyond the community college or maybe the local state university) which only a few posters who find these forums would be in.
Which gives students a golden opportunity to distinguish themselves from their peers. So don’t look at it as a requirement but as an opportunity to go above and beyond. So if your child finishes level 4 or AP before Senior year see if they can continue the language in some way.
Ok, let’s say my daughter wanted to try to take some kind of French beyond her Level II, III Honors and AP, anyone know of something to do online beyond that? I just checked the two closest community colleges to us. One doesn’t even offer French, the other does but nothing beyond level III.
Check the college’s recommended placement for language levels. For example, in some colleges in California, third semester college French would be suitable for a student with AP score of 3 or four years of high school French (though an AP score of 4 or 5 would place higher).
She can also practice reading by reading international news from French language sources like the following:
https://news.google.com/?hl=fr&gl=FR&ceid=FR%3Afr
https://news.google.com/?hl=fr-CA&gl=CA&ceid=CA:fr
@CAtransplant check BYU online.
@washugrad thanks - just checked - no French there for this summer or fall, unfortunately.
D20 finished her highest level Spanish (AP Spanish Lang) offered in her Sophomore year. Based on advice on CC, she took college level Spanish at our local community college in her first semester junior year. Managed to get an A so it worked out but it was a lot of pressure on her. She has decided to not take Spanish this semester. We will see how things play out Spanish wise during college admissions.
One area I haven’t seen discussed is if your kid plans on engineering/computer science. I have a S22 who is aiming that direction for college. This discussion is good for planning.
For many engineering/CS schools, foreign language seems to be stressed less.
• Carnegie Mellon Schools of Computer Science/Engineering: 2 years required
• Worcester Polytechnic Institute: 0 years required
• Rose-Hulman: 0 years required
• Harvey Mudd: 2 years recommended
• Rochester Institute of Technology: 0 years required
• Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute: 0 years required
• MIT: 2 years recommended
I’d guess that if it came down to AP Calculus or foreign language, future engineering/CS majors would be better off doing Calculus.
However, if the student may study engineering or CS at a general university (e.g. many state universities), s/he may need to consider the foreign language requirement or recommendation for the university generally (e.g. UCs require level 2 and recommend level 3 of foreign language for frosh admission, regardless of major).
In addition, CS may be offered within the liberal arts division of a university, so a student studying CS that way may need to consider foreign language for both admission and graduation. Also, some schools with foreign language graduation requirements apply them to all majors, including engineering majors.
YES! to the above- just because some schools admit directly to a major and have lesser requirements does not mean one should skip the extra year(s) of a foreign language. I would not want to be limited to only certain schools because I did not qualify for others that may have a good CS department. You may not get into a school with minimal FL reqs.
@socaldad2002 I had a long chat w/my D when she was selecting classes for her senior yr of HS. Despite my misgivings, she chose NOT to take a language her senior year in order to take an extra science class she thought she would enjoy more (she did). That decision didn’t seem to hurt her when it came to applying to colleges. She was accepted to several top colleges including two that recommended 4 yrs of one foreign language. I believe she may have included a very brief explanation on some of her college applications.
@KnightsRidge That’s good to know! As @skieurope always says anecdote is not data but I also know someone recently accepted to H, UPenn, Brown, Duke, etc. with only 3 years of FL but this kid is exceptional is every other way. For my D20, I think its better to be safe than sorry and she should just take the 4th year. Our GC argument was that you don’t want the Adcom to use the lack of a 4th year to be a distraction to the rest of the application.
@skieurope of course one needs more than HS language to be fluent. It would be silly to assume otherwise. My point was that to function in the country you need at least that much. Anytime I have worked abroad (for significantly more than minimum wage), the shared language was English. Short term the employer will coddle you, but more than a month, you need functional language skills.
Nearly every highly selective college’s website gives a list of required/recommended courses, as does their CDS. You can compare both as a confirmation. The foreign language recommendations can differ quite a bit from college to college, or even from school to school within the same college. For example,
Harvard’s website says, “we recommend:… Four years of a single foreign language”
Harvard’s CDS also says, recommended 4 years of foreign language
MIT’s website says, “What you take should be based on your interests and aptitudes: that is, you should focus on taking the most challenging courses available to you in the areas that interest you.”
We recommend… “Two years of a foreign language”
MIT’s CDS also says, recommended 2 years of foreign language
The colleges aren’t trying to trick you. If MIT says they recommend the most challenging courses available to you in the areas that interest you without a 4 years foreign language recommendation, then I’d take that to mean it’s okay for a kid who is really passionate about math/science and not foreign language to take less than 4 years language and instead take more challenging, higher level classes in the areas he is passionate about that he plans to pursue during college… even if some other highly selective college says they recommend more years foreign language than MIT.
However, the risk is that there are quite a few highly selective colleges that recommend 4 years foreign language, including Harvard. If you take less than 4 years of foreign language, you may be reducing change of admission at certain colleges. 4 years may also be desirable for students planning to enter a particular field, even if it isn’t recommended for the full student body.
I would look beyond high school and college to future employment. I know that where I work, knowing a foreign language isn’t required for any job here, but it has been the determining factor in who has gotten job offers. As our economy becomes more global, knowing Japanese or German might be more beneficial for an engineering student than some science classes.
Let’s say there is a scheduling problem (frequent in small or understaffed schools) and a kid interested in music has a conflict between theory or orchestra and to math or FL, and chooses the former. The GC can write about this in their note with the transcript. I know kids who have dropped back in math to take a music class, or not done science because their other classes made it impossible to get a science class. And got in to a top school…
I think students should follow their interests in the case of 1) at least meeting requirements and 2) in the case of conflicts and 3) in the context of strong interests. Colleges understand and appreciate this.
If following interests instead of taking a 4th FL, if the kid hates FL or has something else they really are interested in, and that results in not getting in, so be it. The college they do go to might be a better fit.
Foreign language classes for first year students at Harvard- as an example- tend to be enjoyable actually. Not a disaster to have to take one and very common.
Strongly agree! This is also the conclusion I have arrived at as a result of this thread. In fact, if a school admit decision actually came down to one student with four year FLs and you with three FLs plus an additional solid class of interest, the school that would choose the first student wasn’t the one for you anyway.
“YES! to the above- just because some schools admit directly to a major and have lesser requirements does not mean one should skip the extra year(s) of a foreign language.”
Ok, but we’re talking AP Calculus vs a foreign language for a CS major, in that case the choice is Calculus, without a doubt. If you don’t take AP Calc and it’s offered and you’re applying to top engineering or CS schools, that will be a huge red flag, it will outweigh any benefit of another year of foreign language.
Adcoms are not shy about AP Calculus, it’s the first math course they look for (again assuming the high school offers it).