Are AP courses being shoved down your kids' throats?

Parent Cafe
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<p>“I’m not sure I understand the problem with a teacher occasionally acknowledging that a particular topic/lesson is not exactly keep you on the edge of your seat stuff as long as it is not a regular occurence/statement on their part”</p>

<p>Because for some, all education must be entertaining and the teacher must be passionate as it’s a fact all students are passionate about every class…:slight_smile: </p>

<p>Some aspects of some courses you just have to truge through, it’s always been that way and always will. I respect the honesty of a teacher acknowledging that some subjects are rather dry or they had difficulty with as students themselves.</p>

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<p>I disagree
A teacher is an adult and should be finding a way to communicate the subject in a way that it isnt “boring”
We all know, that learning lasts longer and is more complete, when we are engaged.
Yes, we will have difficult parts of every subject- but we need to have some sort of motivation to get through it- & if the teacher doesn’t even seem motivated- how are we going to expect more of the students
a friend has a Phd in statistics- for example- this subject is difficult for some, because it might seem dry or irrelvant- but obviously if you have taken the time to get a Phd, then you are able to find something interesting, and even fascinating about it.
Lets take the time to find teachers who can find their work compelling, and who aren’t forced to teach things that they aren’t interested in or know little about.
Our kids deserve nothing less.</p>

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<p>“A teacher is an adult and should be finding a way to communicate the subject in a way that it isnt “boring””</p>

<p>Define boring? Is it the same definition for everyone? While you might enjoy english literature classics, I might find them boring and no matter how hard a teacher works they aren’t going to get me to enjoy “little women”, now Issac Asamov…yea I’d enjoy that, but english “classics” no sorry. You could be the best teacher in the world, it’s not going to happen.</p>

<p>As far as a teacher admiting they struggled with a subject they’re teaching as a student. I would expect them to show how they got over that struggle to understand the material. That in itself, learning how to overcome a personally difficult course, might just be more inportant than the course itself. </p>

<p>And don’t worry Emerald with the school board you folks have, I’d certainly cut you alot of slack for being unhappy. </p>

<p>“if the teacher doesn’t even seem motivated-”</p>

<p>Just cause that cheerleader “cheered” the loudest, might not make them the best cheerleader. Remember there’s “show” and there’s “go”. </p>

<p>“who aren’t forced to teach things that they aren’t interested in or know little about.”</p>

<p>Remember and this goes back to my thing with SS, teachers don’t hire themselves or assign themselves classrooms. I think your “disappointment” might be misplaced. But you’ve got to deal with the Seattle School Board… You have my sympathies. </p>

<p>Besides as a side note Think how good the Sonics would have been without ever having Wally Walker as GM. Wally’s administration and his interpersonal skills are why we’ll have the Oklahoma Sonics next year. You have to remember who is responsible for the situation and place that responsibility at their feet.</p>

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<p>Opie, your hypocricsy is astounding. You question the mental stability of principals, BOE members, & supers. Yet nobody is allowed to criticize bad teachers. What a stinking load.</p>

<p>Bad teachers are everywhere. (But not, apparently, in your town!) New Jersey does better than most states. I don’t think any child, whether bright or struggling, should have to spend a year being taught by an incompetent, tenure-protected teacher. Apparently you do, because teachers are worthy of job protection. I think kids deserve better. And that is an opinion shared by many teachers I know. They do NOT all support tenure. They hate that their profession is dragged down by the deadwood.</p>

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<p>I don’t have a huge problem with my D’s teachers- I was just commenting on a post commenting on a teacher who thought that the subject they were teaching was boring and that the kids were correct to be disinterested.</p>

<p>Boring isn’t the same for everyone- I agree- so there may be a few students in teh class, who think the subject is fascinating- however if his classmates and even the teacher think its boring- is that going to give him motivation to speak up?</p>

<p>I realize teachers don’t hire themselves or assign themselves classrooms.
Principals may be forced to assign teachers to classrooms to teach subjects about which they know little .
(Our district for instance discourages hiring from outside the district, even though there may not be anyone in the pool who is suitable.)</p>

<p>But if you previously taught history, and now you are teaching physics- what a great opportunity to find someone to mentor you, so you can at least communicate basic knowledge to your students, and give them the resources to explore when your well runs dry.</p>

<p>I have been many things- in my working life.
For example- I cut hair for a while at some of the top salons- while I was doing it- I took classes- and read a lot about the field, it didnt’ get me any more money- I did it because that is what you do when you take your job seriously.</p>

<p>If I had worked with someone who made me or the profession look bad- I would have advocated for them to hightail it out of there.( assuming that a stern talking to wasn’t going to help)
When I realized that while I liked the work- I didn’t like all the baggage that went along with it, and I changed fields- no matter how technically good I was- I wasn’t doing my job, if I couldn’t “be” the person the salon hired, or that the customer expected to see.</p>

<p>I could have looked harder to find a salon that was a better fit- I expect if I had found one that was less high fashion, I would have been happier-and perhaps if districts paid more attention to making a good fit with teachers- not just letting those with the most seniority have first pick- they wouldn’t have the some of the problems they do-teaching is just like any other profession- some people are suited, some aren’t. It doesn’t help the ones who are doing their job to have others who aren’t doing * theirs*</p>

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Yup. Thats why in other fields, those who don’t perform are shown the door.</p>

<p>Opie writes about parents being happy with the “majority” of their kids’ teachers. Yet when we deal with other professions, we insist on being happy with ALL of those in it. I doubt we’d keep going to a sub-par dentist and financial planner just because our attorney, doctor, plumber, and auto mechanic are excellent. A kid is denied an important year of intellectual development if he’s unlucky enough to get a bad teacher. Would you let your roof leak for a year? Your investment portfolio tank for a year? Your cancer remain untreated for a year? Your taxes remain unfiled for a year?</p>

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<p>Exactly, sticker. But it would be simpler to find a “solution” to Iraq than try to tackle teacher tenure. </p>

<p>Wharf, I wasn’t alluding to a scenario in which an overall good teacher, much less one assigned to teach AP, would acknowledge that this one part is maybe a bit of a bore but let’s slog through it, fellows. I was talking about a teacher hired to be an asst football coach but who needs more hours to make a living so they plop him into a nonhonors history course — and frankly the nonacademically stellar students often need the most talented teachers not the least — where systematically, day after mind-numbing day, he imparts the message that this material, and by extension, this school thing you have to do, is boring. It just really irks me :mad: even though I mostly am able to steer my boys away from those teachers. </p>

<p>Opie, I don’t think I can define it any better than that. It’s like trying to define what “is” is.</p>

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<p>“Bad teachers are everywhere. (But not, apparently, in your town!) New Jersey does better than most states.”</p>

<p>You’d never guess it from your posts.</p>

<p>" I don’t think any child, whether bright or struggling, should have to spend a year being taught by an incompetent, tenure-protected teacher."</p>

<p>You call me a hypocrite, yet I’ve never read any commments from you where you hold the people who hire responsible. Teachers don’t hire themselves. And just how many highly incompetent tenured teachers does NJ have? </p>

<p>I haven’t come across in my 30 years around educators ANY incompetent educators with a decade or more of experience. Well, maybe a PE teacher or two, who doesn’t understand soccer, but no math, english, history or science teachers with experience at least in my tiny district are that bad that I would label them incompetent. And no, I don’t like all of them, some I dislike for personal reasons, but professionally they’re much better than I expected. </p>

<p>“Apparently you do, because teachers are worthy of job protection.”</p>

<p>From nonsensical issues absolutely! There are dozens of petty issues that arise everyday in a school building, should we put a teacher’s job at risk because of a disagreement with an adminstrator. Or a teacher/coach job status because he cut a school board member’s kid? Is that fair? </p>

<p>Criminal acts are one issue, but your posts don’t condem teachers for criminal acts. You condem them for your perceived lack of enhusasim over a subject. If your not peppy and excited every momment, you must be a bad teacher and should be fired. You for some reason want to demonize a honorable profession, maybe it’s personal and you’ve had bad experiences. </p>

<p>“I think kids deserve better. And that is an opinion shared by many teachers I know. They do NOT all support tenure. They hate that their profession is dragged down by the deadwood”</p>

<p>What if as an administrator I decide they are deadwood? Should they have to pack up and move to a new job/town because they didn’t show me enough kiss ass? Perfectly excellent teachers are driven from districts now by noneducators in power simply because they can make it not worth the battle. </p>

<p>You always want to throw the constraints off the box, what would really happen if you had your way?? Better education?? that’s really doubtful but I’ll let you tell me how it would happen in your world. </p>

<p>Besides there are much worse things in life to be demonized for than supporting educators, so I welcome your comments.</p>

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<p>"I was talking about a teacher hired to be an asst football coach but who needs more hours to make a living so they plop him into a nonhonors history course — and frankly the nonacademically stellar students often need the most talented teachers not the least — where systematically, day after mind-numbing day, he imparts the message that this material, and by extension, this school thing you have to do, is boring. It just really irks me even though I mostly am able to steer my boys away from those teachers. "</p>

<p>But who HIRED him? Jazzymom, that’s been my point. And not every coach is a bad teacher. But rather than dump all the criticism on the teacher, look at the source of the problem and question them. This is similar to dumping on the ground troops in Iraq for GW’s decisions. I don’t think you blame the troops for the president’s decision… do you? </p>

<p>Did you ever think that he could be a good teacher stuck in a bad situation? Is that even remotely possible?</p>

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<p>“Our district for instance discourages hiring from outside the district, even though there may not be anyone in the pool who is suitable.)”</p>

<p>Emerald, the thing to remember is the Seattle School District is competing for teachers too. If they continue to be as messed up as they are admin wise, they will not attract the exceptional educators. Maybe the reason I’ve come accross so many good educators is our district pays fairly well (top 10%) in the state. Teachers like anyone else when job hunting, look at pay, location and atmosphere. So maybe, my district is a bit better than some of these others mentioned by some other posters. Maybe their districts don’t attract the best canidates to hire, so maybe SS is right and Jersey sucks for teachers cause jersey doesn’t want to pay for education. </p>

<p>Seattle schools compete with strong school districts in a 15 mile radius that may draw better teachers away as those communities are willing to fund extra monies to provide for what our state won’t. </p>

<p>We recently went through the longest teacher strike in state history because of a bad superintendant and school board. Teachers coming out of college were told to skip applying to our district because it was so bad. </p>

<p>The community had enough, voted out the board, fired the old super (unfortunately the old board in one of their last acts, guaranteed two years pay to the outgoing super as a parting shot to the community) hired a new super, who brought in new people administratively and changed the culture in the district and things have been good since. He recently was super of the year in the state. I’ve worked on issues with him and like him, very small ego, very much educator/student oriented. Things are getting better every day. </p>

<p>Teachers feel respected and more importantly listened to and brought into the decision making. Maybe some of these other places that isn’t the case. Maybe SS is right about her home but might not understand the root cause of the problem.</p>

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<p>Opie, you’ll probably not like it, but check out the new “Gratuitously Mean Teacher” thread. Surprise, surprise. All teachers don’t float on wings. Of course, you’ll write off their antics as “good teachers stuck in bad situations,” I’m sure.</p>

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<p>I read the Mean Teacher thread and without question there are people in the profession that have no business being there. The truth of the matter is however that the vast majority of people in the teaching profession are there because they love working with kids, love their content, and bust their tails 180 days a year for your kids. For you to attempt to smear the entire profession on the basis of a few individuals who do not exhibit the previously mentioned characteristics is offensive to me as a teacher.</p>

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<p>I have NEVER attempted to smear the entire profession. Perhaps you have not read my posts. If you have read my posts and have come to your erroneous conclusion, then I am glad you do not teach my children, as you suffer from a reading comprehension problem. I object to the ridiculous tenure system that protects the terrible teachers out there. I have teacher friends and professor friends who agree 100% with me that tenure is an abomination & demeans the profession of teaching.</p>

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<p>“I have NEVER attempted to smear the entire profession”</p>

<p>Noooooo, not at all. Just all those outside your circle of teacher friends…:)</p>

<p>No, you have nothing but respect for educators, everyone can tell by your glowing remarks. </p>

<p>Where we differ on this issue comes down to this… I am not willing to allow anyone to mess around with good teachers, on a whim or a personal dislike. You want to throw the system out and give a people with agendas a open season. </p>

<p>How many good teachers are YOU willing to dispose of if you got your way? Or would all live in fear of your judgement and ideals of what education should be? </p>

<p>I have called you a gossip over some of the issues you brought up on a previous post. Complaining about trivial matters and grandising them to imply some great crime existed there to justify doing away with the teacher’s union and tenure. Are those things REALLY worth destroying somebody over? they find a subject boring or had trouble when they were a student in the same class? OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!! How dare they harm children by not being bright eyed and bushy tailed every second of the day, just like us!! </p>

<p>There are processes in place to remove teachers that don’t cut it. NO they aren’t easy to do and take some time to go through, and I wouldn’t have it any other way. Administrators should have to prove incompetence, not decide on a whim or a hidden side issue (like child not starting on Bball team or wanting to cut payroll) before they put anybody out of a job. </p>

<p>I’m just not as willing as you seem to be on going through the 9 good teachers to find the 1 bad. I see no reason to disrupt 9 execellent teachers or make them fear for their jobs because 1 needs some work. </p>

<p>Again tell what it would really be like if you got your way and could fire on a whim? Tell me what kind of educator you’d attract? Should they rent or buy a home? Should they always be on the lookout for a better school district? Should they forget about putting down roots in the community? </p>

<p>I’ve seen your world, it doesn’t make kids smarter or education better.</p>

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<p>I have to agree with SS that ALL of the teachers I have talked with (and these are people who I respect) would love to do away with tenure. There are laws in place to protect people from being fired for “no cause”–tenure in this day and time is not necessary and does serve to protect those who don’t want to work as hard or excel. I know if my H. (who is not in education) feels that it is necessary to dismiss an employee due to incompetence --it takes months of documentation and even then often a lawsuit arises.</p>

<p>Teachers don’t have the career ladder to climb as in many other professions, at least without tenure, the “bad” ones maybe wouldn’t be rewarded with retaining their positions. When talking with principals about this situation, the most common response is that it is next to impossible to remove a teacher with tenure unless it is a sexual act against/with a student–otherwise one must “wait them out”.</p>

<p>I have a DIL in education, other relatives and many close friends. Plus my kids have had some wonderful, life-changing teachers. I respect the profession tremendously—and believe that in most areas it is grossly underpaid.</p>

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<p>What kind of educators do private schools attract? </p>

<p>They keep the good ones and let the bad ones go, don’t they? They seem to be able to charge a lot of money for the education they deliver, so I assume they are able to staff their classrooms with teachers who know the material, know how to handle teenagers without being mean, can engage students and that these are people who are not cowering in fear for being let go on a whim. </p>

<p>Not speaking for anyone else, but I don’t want to necessarily elminate tenure for all teachers. I just want the system that is supposed to allow principals to weed out the lazy, indifferent or borderline nutty to work a lot better than it does. And for the record, let me repeat, that my sons have encountered terrific, energetic, knowledgeable and dedicated teachers in their public schools from K on up. In the classrooms of the best ones, my sons have received an education that would rival that of a private school. (And we could save the money for private college.) But in the classrooms of the worst teachers, it’s not even close.</p>

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<p>And therein lies one of the reasons for tenure- teaching is a very low paying profession. Tenure is one way to offer a reward.</p>

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<p>"What kind of educators do private schools attract? "</p>

<p>the guy who claimed to have killed JB? :)</p>

<p>Some of these people plucked from articles to show bad teachers (practice and sexual deviants) are in fact private school teachers who were hired not subject to state standards. </p>

<p>Private school encompass a wide variety of educational situations. Just as I talk up my publics and some here talk up their private schools. The scale is varied. Not all publics are great places nor are all privates great places. </p>

<p>I would think outside of a few here, we all just want people treated fairly and given respect and respect returned. In 99% of the cases, that’s exactly what happens. Where I am in dispute with some here is on how to deal with the 1% that needs to do something else. I think there are ways to work it out without disruption to the 99% that work hard. I won’t accept methods that disrepect those people. Good teachers are driven from the profession too, not just bad ones. Why create methods to push good teachers into other careers? This is where I differ from some here. I’ve seen what happens when it’s open season on teachers and some of the best, just get tired of the noise and retire and our kids lose. </p>

<p>It’s like an ethnic slur, when you say it about one, you hurt all.</p>

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And some of the ones that I know were driven from the profession (these are public school) because of added burden of carrying the weight for the “deadwood”. The motivated, energetic teacher is the one who runs after school study sessions, helps with clubs, heads departments, serves on PTO, etc. The “others” collect their protected paycheck, which is often much larger due to seniority, and go home.</p>

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<p>I am in my twenty-first year of teaching. I am a Department Chair, teach 5 sections of A.P., run after-school study sessions, and work at a variety of athletic events after school. Many of the younger teachers who do not do these things don’t because they have families and younger children of their own. Many of those who are even older than me have stopped doing as many extra things because frankly they are tired. After having spent many years giving their time and energy it is time to pass the baton on to someone else. It is no reflection whatsoever on their teaching ability or their dedication.</p>