<p>“I don’t see anyone here trying to step in and “fix” anything;”</p>
<p>Actually that was pretty early on, the only fix is to talk with the prof preferably before grades are posted. Mine did and the problem was solved.</p>
<p>Ah, I missed that.</p>
<p>I agree with your post just before, too. Nothing against “project managers”, but they are not a part of my world or that of my family’s. </p>
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<p>I’m so tired of the “business model” view of life.</p>
<p>It’s the same on a PTA project or a bunch of civil servants trying to do a project. Some people always do most of the work. Nothing to do with business models. Just basic group dynamics.</p>
<p>I am not looking at my situation as optimal, and I realize that there are other views. It is not necessary or even desirable for everyone to work with a project manager, but it is necessary that complex projects be managed. Very few projects in the sciences, in medicine or in business can be accomplished without a team of some sort. If you think that some professions do not require a team, I respectfully suggest that you are not looking at the big picture.</p>
<p>How effective can a physician be if there is not a pharmacist somewhere to compound the prescriptions she prescribes? How widely read will a novelist be without publishers and printers? How many students will a professor reach without the infrastructure provided by their school? Perhaps you could give some examples of professions that require no team at all.</p>
<p>Like it or not, we are all part of many teams and we may someday be called upon to play different roles in any of them. I believe that someone who is comfortable in multiple roles is going to be in a better position to help both themselves and the team than someone who is comfortable in only one role.</p>
<p>For the record, I am much happier working on my own in a laboratory than I am when I have to be the project manager and tie up all of the loose ends for others. Unfortunately, I don’t always get the jobs that I want.</p>
<p>I didn’t read the whole thread, but this comment (post #3) hit a nerve:</p>
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<p>Maybe that was an attempt at humor, but based on my daughter’s middle and high school “team projects” from years ago, I gather a lot of boys have been given that exact same advice-- and took it to heart. </p>
<p>I agree about the “peer review” or grading of other team members, before turning in these team projects. That seemed to work really well.</p>
<p>“Nothing against ‘project managers’, but they are not a part of my world or that of my family’s.”</p>
<p>Actually they are if you use computers, telephones, the Internet or electricity that you did not generate yourself.</p>
<p>“So my question…do you think this is a fair way to grade students?”</p>
<p>H*** NO!!</p>
<p>My (assigned) partner on my first year law school moot court brief drove me into the worst fit of anger I had in the last 15 years. You had to pass moot court to pass the year. I submitted my half of the brief to her ahead of time; she volunteered to put it together with her half and print 6 copies on special paper, etc., as required. Well, at 10 pm the night before it was due, I decided to check our instructor’s inbox to make sure it was all turned in right. To make a long story short, she had turned in ONE copy, which only included my half of the text, and then left town! So I had to stay up all night writing her half and go to Kinko’s at 5 in the morning to buy the special paper etc. etc…and all this the night before my musical opened. I called my mother in such a hysterical rage that my neighbors had to come to my apartment to shut me up. A week later, when the instructor confronted my partner, my partner said, “I guess I shafted her, but I don’t care.” Per the rules, she and I got the same review even though the instructor knew what had happened.</p>
<p>So she passed and graduated and is out there with a Harvard Law degree. (I was tempted to object to her character and fitness when she took the NY bar.) No, this is not a fair way to grade students.</p>
<p>Re: the real world: yes, it does happen that you have to cover for a colleague’s failure. But when review time comes around, you get a gold star and a raise for saving the project. If you don’t, you find a new job. And where does this “teach schoolchildren how to cope with their crummy future colleagues” theory end? To me, these exercises make no more or less sense than a school deliberately forcing the kids to practice dealing with the other miseries they are likely to encounter in the workplace someday, e.g. sexual harassment, power-drunk middle managers, surprise assignments handed out at 4:30 on Friday afternoon, etc. I’m sorry to say that most high schools I’ve encountered are already pretty good training grounds for the essential workplace skill of kissing butt. I’d like to move as far away from that model as possible.</p>
<p>wow, Hanna, excellent post - and congrats on surviving what looked like an insurmountable mess. It disturbs me that this woman will be practicing law with a nice shiny Harvard degree that implies she must have a passing familiarity with the concept of ethics. Hope she doesn’t wind up in government somewhere.</p>
<p>Bassdad–Re your “if you use computers” remark: Obviously, I meant working with in a way that required “group work”, but you knew that.</p>
<p>When you stretch this to include writers talking to publishers, doctors talking to pharmacists, you go back to my original point. I already taught my kids basic civility and respect in dealing with people; that’s not the same thing as the formal “group dynamic” business model that we’re talking about here.</p>
<p>And those who haven’t been taught manners? I don’t see how they’ll get this out of these projects–they’ll just be the ones who drive the responsible kids crazy. There’s enough of that in real life; no need to artificially replicate it in class.</p>
<p>Actually I did not equate “not part of my world” with “working with in a way that required ‘group work’”. In my opinion, the first statement is much stronger and farther reaching than the second. Be that as it may, you have probably performed the function of a project manager yourself or worked closely with someone who has. I am talking about such basic things as breaking a complex task into a series of simpler ones, agreeing on objectives, setting a budget for both time and money, prioritizing, figuring out who is going to do what, taking stock to see whether actual progress compares with the original plan, and so forth. How many people can truthfully say that they do not do these things themselves or work directly with someone who does?</p>
<p>We seem to be talking about different things. I never mentioned a formal “group dynamic” business model (whatever that may be.) My point was that few, if any of us, work in a situation that does not require group work of some sort. Civility and mutual respect are most welcome, but there has to be a shared base of knowledge and a common language as well.</p>
<p>It seems that we have all had bad experiences with schools using ineffective methods when attempting to get students to work in teams. Some have used this as evidence that the schools need to find better methods while others have said that they should abandon the attempt altogether and leave this lesson for “real life.” Regardless of where and how it is taught, I have observed that even civil and respectful people can be clueless in this regard unless they have worked on team skills somewhere along the line. I do not say that this applies in all cases but, on the whole, people who are adept at working as part of a team will usually attract more attention from potential employers than those who are not.</p>
<p>"That’s why school projects are so frustrating in my opinion. There is little to no instruction in team functioning, and then (surprise, surprise) the students are often frustrated and ineffective and learn to hate group projects.</p>
<p>Which is a shame."</p>
<p>And that’s why I posted previously about my younger son’s magazine project. The teacher watched over those magazines carefully. She taught the groups how to do the project together and had all the group dynamic activities scheduled to take place in her classroom, so that she was quite aware of whether there were slackers in the groups. Only the actual article writing took place at home.</p>
<p>Bassdad,</p>
<p>The problem is in every real life situation you describe the groups are not equals, somebody’s in charge. Somebody’s group manager, responsible for the outcome. Someone is responsible and can possibly terminate a non performer in the workplace… So how does that work for a student? Can my D “fire” another student for not working hard enough? Can she hire better students? Maybe from another school?</p>
<p>There are many groups in real life where firing is not an option and the group head has no real power. Church projects, PTA projects, alumni clubs, other clubs.</p>
<p>And again, many chances to have that experience in real life. Couldn’t college be where you concentrate on learning?</p>
<p>Unless the exercise is far beyond the ones most of us have been talking about, your daughter will certainly not be able to “fire” another student who is not working hard enough. Similarly, I would not be able to fire a non-productive colleague at my own level. Presumably, the teacher and the school administration can act as managers if they know about the situation and agree that something needs to be done. They may also choose not to act, for a variety of reasons. (Hmm, still sounds like “real life” to me.)</p>
<p>As I see it your daughter has the following choices:
- Compensate for the other student and say nothing.
- Report the problem to the teacher and request their help.
- Request reassignment to a different team for the current project.
- Tough out the current assignment and request to be assigned to a different team in the future.
- Report the problem to the school administration and request that they intervene.
- Request a different teacher.
- Attend a different school.</p>
<p>All of these have workplace parallels. The main difference I see is that parents are not usually involved in the workplace.</p>
<p>Okay, I’ll say this one more time, but I really think we just have different views.</p>
<p>You keep saying it’s like “real life” or “the workplace.” I don’t want that replicated in my kids’ classes. there are lots of models for experience, and “the workplace” is just one of them.</p>
<p>The whole “workplace” mentality is not “real life”: it’s an artificial, constructed experience. The movement to use “workplace” analogies in all facets of life (all those successful executive habits books, etc) seems designed as far as i can tell to help people be better cogs.</p>
<p>In our family, we tend to be metaphorical monkeywrenchers, so the cog thing just doesn’t work for us.</p>
<p>It is indeed fortunate then that there are a number of choices in schools and curricula out there. Some students want to pursue something close to pure knowledge in the liberal arts, while others seek the kind of vocational training offered by an engineering school, a business school or a conservatory of music. As far as I am concerned, that is as it should be.</p>
<p>There are tools that the workplace has to offer that may or may not be appropriate for use in other facets of life. It is up to us to decide if and when to use them. I think it is clear that this is an area where the two of us might make different judgments. I will also admit a distaste for the vast majority of the books you describe, however.</p>
<p>Personally, I don’t get the distinction between “real life” and either school or the workplace. I think both institutions are integral parts of life even if both are artificial, constructed experiences. For most of us, they take up a tremendous portion of our waking hours. Is “real life” only the stuff that happens in natural, unconstructed environments?</p>
<p>In our family, we tend to be toolmakers. If the cogs aren’t working, it is time to redesign things.</p>
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<p>Wow–I can’t remember the last time I mentioned a book anywhere on this board. Must’ve been a doozy of a dislike for you to still recall it, whatever it was!!!</p>
<p>I would see learning how to deal with other people who might not share your viewpoint is essential to life–maybe of of the most essential-- and college is a good place to learn it. One bad college grade (if that is the result) is far from life or death. It’s just a bump in the road. Next time a similar situation arises you will be ready to handle it better. That’s more important than cramming some more useless data in your head.</p>
<p>I was not referring to any one book in particular, rather the class of executive habits books mentioned in your post 76 on this thread. Hastily thrown together to make a quick buck and poorly written for the most part (the books, that is, not your post.) I can do without them.</p>