I really don’t think most guys are threatened or intimidated by intelligence, success, looks, whatever. However, being approachable is a good thing to meeting potential partners. It doesn’t necessarily need to be flirty but many young women unknowingly put up some barriers or body language/vibe that makes them less approachable. Many young women aren’t willing to put themselves out there to make the first move or approach someone they are attracted to. They wait for someone to approach them. If so, they need to be approachable. Young men are going to be drawn to those folks who put out the vibe that minimizes the chance of rejection. That’s just human nature.
Ok, so maybe flirty isn’t the right word.
But things aren’t right if you have no idea how to communicate interest to a guy. Girls need to know how to take a risk and show their interest so that a guy has the green light on pursuing a relationship with them.
“I think the whole “men are intimidated by successful women” thing is overblown.”
Yes, or more precisely the “men are intimidated by successful women” thing is entirely wrong.
However, many men are not going to assume that every successful woman wants to date them, and don’t want to bug every female co-worker by asking them out. If nothing else they are likely to get fired if they try too often. I have seen a coworker fired for assuming this only once (and another fired for dating a coworker’s wife, but that is another issue).
If successful women are waiting for the right man to ask them out they might wait forever. If successful women are going to do the asking, they will probably get a lot of “yes” responses – or perhaps only one, if only one is what they want.
It’s interesting because in some ways I feel like young men and women get along better, with greater ease, than they used to. I think of the groups of mixed gender friends I have seen my kids belong to in high school and college.
I do see young people who have chemistry, sexual tension or strong attraction, but I also see less flirting. Just one woman’s opinion. I do see flirting, but not as much as I remember from when I was young. Maybe because kids are more comfortable with each other they don’t engage in the old, ritualized behavior, like flirting? But they also don’t have anything else in its place?
Just throwing it out there. When I was young, I was good at flirting and reading the signs and was otherwise a pretty nerdy girl. I have one son who seems to be pretty good at courting—he doesn’t really flirt so much as he courts. He is shy and nerdy, but very romantic and he knows how to go after what he wants. And he is brave about rejection. Other son is much more afraid of rejection. Currently both have GFs, so I can’t complain.
For my guys they would agree with studious99…but I know my guys like women that aren’t high maintenance. They tend to migrate to women that can ski with them, are comfortable on a boat or in the woods and having a beer at the corner bar but still can go out to dinner and understands social manners. And they prefer women who have a career path and aren’t living off the 'rents. They don’t like to be stalked and they don’t like being the topic of a GFs social media from what I am told. From my observation they all 3 tend towArd what used to be called All-American type…not too fashionista and comfortable around the guys and their girlfriends. #1 is in an ongoing offagain thing that is currently on. #2 is looking and #3 is in a now multiple year relationship. For the most part I like the women I have met over the years with the exception of #3’s stalker a few years ago. Personally I think there is someone for just about everyone but it is a lot about just understanding yourself really well so you are yourself when you meet someone. I have seen a lot of women try to be what they think a guy wants and guys are surprisingly good at seeing through that or at minimal figuring it out. We told the boys not to get married until they were 29 or 30. So far so good.
Eye contact and a genuine smile go a long way…
Large part of that is the still ever present not wanting to be “one-upped” among many males…especially young insecure ones.
My D is in high school and has been told by her male friends that although she’s friendly and very pretty, guys at her school find her success intimidating and are scared to ask her out. She’s near the top of her class, is her class president, and is a talented musician. She’s proud of her accomplishments, but is really disappointed that she doesn’t get asked out. I’ve told her that she will probably have better luck with romance in college.
My daughter has a female friend who is very smart and really pretty. She literally told my daughter that she has to act “dumb” to get a boy’s attention. I’ve seen do her “dumb” act around boys and I find it sort of sad. But it likely works for her, because this girl has boys asking her out left and right.
I found this article to be an interesting read: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/men-like-the-idea-of-a-smart-woman-but-they-may-not-be-interested-in-dating-one_us_5627a564e4b02f6a900ed2aa
I met my husband online when I was 38 and had been actively looking for him for 11 years. Online dating is a skill, and you can get better at it over time. I have seriously considered adding online dating coaching to my counseling practice. It’s very similar to college essays: think about your reader’s point of view, choose words that are packed with meaning, be concrete, show how you’re different from your peers, etc.
“the “men are intimidated by successful women” thing is entirely wrong.”
The cliche is not entirely wrong. Take it from a Harvard Law woman who’s watched blind dates fall apart when our life stories/careers come up during small talk.
That said, I think this is the wrong frame for the problem. Men don’t have to be intimidated to walk away; they just have to be turned off. Men will certainly go on a date with a highly educated/successful/etc. woman who asks them. But do they stick around? Are they interested in that woman as a partner? Most of them make other choices.
The TYPE of success matters a lot, too. A woman who is brilliant, has a graduate degree, and makes good money in a traditionally feminine role – nurse, teacher, interior designer – is a totally different story from a similar woman who is a surgeon, lawyer, banker, etc. There are a lot of men who find one group sexier than the other.
There’s a lot of evidence someone with a college degree doesn’t want to marry someone with only a high school diploma. That leads to the surplus of educated women to educated men. The other issue is if you haven’t met anyone by the time you finish college, move out of state for a job where you don’t know anyone, and then have HR drill into your head it’s a terrible idea to date anyone at work, then you need to be outgoing to meet new people.
I agree with that @roethlisburger . I love the comment from the blue-collar worker a few pages back, and I am sure he isn’t a knuckle-dragger. I simply would not have married someone without a college degree though. But, as women continue to earn more degrees than men, it’s possible that this will be a problem going forward. Or maybe not s problem, but women will not have the luxury of being so picky. I hate to say it, but it is one very minor reason that I am glad my daughter attends a college with an equal gender balance.
At the heart of it all though, it really comes down to personality. I am outgoing and have never struggled to find a date. My daughter is shy. I am sure it’s going to be harder for her. I won’t be one bit surprised if she ends up trying online dating. Thank goodness that’s a viable and shame-free option these days.
What about the more old fashioned way of joining groups/putting yourself in situations where you will find people like you? I see that young people use online dating more and more, but have they abandoned going to church, taking a class, joining a special interest group to meet someone? I always felt like that would work for less outgoing people because they could at least talk about the common interest that brought them together. For example, the young man in the marathon training group could talk to young women in the group about running or running shoes or injuries.
Another reason for the dating delay may be that unless you’re pretty conservative and religious, it’s expected that you’ll become physically intimate with someone fairly quickly (within a few weeks). There’s not really “casual dating” anymore, unless that phrase is being used as a euphemism for a series of one-or-two-time encounters with multiple people. If you’re not interested in something “no strings attached” there’s really only “looking for a serious relationship,” which is not what a lot of younger people and college students are ready for.
That might be why more people in their 20s are doing online dating as opposed to something like classes or special interest groups, as was mentioned above. It’s probably the easiest way to screen people’s intentions.
You can’t see chemistry though a computer screen though… Someone might seem very “meh” on their profile but be hilarious and charming in person.
@Lizardly my D has done many of these things. But as she is moving into her later 20’s, she just wasn’t meeting people she wanted to date long term. She works with older people, she knows everyone at her gym and dated someone from there and it didn’t work out. It’s not great to keep dating people from the gym as there aren’t that many singles and it can make things uncomfortable.
She’s been fixed up, she’s met friends of friends. She’s still friends with friends of her ex but would not consider dating them. She’s finding that after a long hiatus from dating that the usual channels weren’t working as well.
She has special interests but was not meeting people. She didn’t want to start dating on line but decided to try. It’s just another outlet to meet a wide range of people you wouldn’t meet otherwise.
There’s no one way to meet someone. Plenty of opportunities, dating apps are just one way.
Talked to D last night. It sounded like there were extenuating circumstances for being stood up and the person apologized profusely. So that’s good.
@Lizardly I am sure plenty of people still meet the old fashioned way. My D has yet to meet anyone at college the old fashioned way though, and she of course has classes and participates in activities at college.
D and her college friends actually created Tinder accounts, and then deleted them the next day, after they were all “liked”, or whatever it is, by lots of guys. I told her Tinder is mostly for hook-ups and it’s good that she deleted it. Tinder creeps me out.
Very good point about chemistry @apresski .
^ Totally agree with all of this.
True. I think many guys make the assumption that successful/outgoing women likely have a line around the block of eligible guys waiting to hand out their numbers, so why bother? Why go through the effort and hassle of trying to compete for them when there are other cute but perhaps less successful women out there who will potentially not be as judgy or play hard to get?
As with many things in life, I think there is a sweet spot… the 7’s and 8’s who are cute, educated, somewhat introverted, and in certain career tracks (i.e nursing, education, etc.) are going to be of interest to virtually every guy on the planet, whereas the 9’s and 10’s, gorgeous, highly educated, highly extroverted types are going to have a much smaller pool of interested guys insofar as long-term relationships go.
It certainly isn’t the case that ALL men are intimidated (or turned off) by smart, successful women, but it is also certainly the case that lots are, especially if the women aren’t going out of their way to make the men feel more comfortable and less threatened. I’ve seen that all my life – with my mother, my wife, and my daughter, but especially with my son. Thanks to his mother and sister, he’s almost uniquely positioned not to be intimidated by smart, successful, competitive women. That’s what he thinks women ought to be like, he’s happy to flirt with them, and if they are remotely accepting of him, and not lecturing him about his flaws, then he’s thrilled to be around them. As a result, he has never lacked for the companionship of women like that, and from time to time they have more or less lined up for his attention. In high school and most of college, he rarely had serious competition from other boys.
“Are my daughter and her friends all destined to be librarians with cats?”…it could be worse.
Three issues that probably apply relatively often: You can’t date someone who you have never met; Dating at work is risky and probably not a good idea; Someone is not likely to ask you out if you have given them the impression that you are not interested. Of course, “giving the impression you are not interested” can apply prior to a first date, or can also apply after a few informal dates.
I know one or two highly successful professional women who probably would say that they have no dates because they are successful, but in fact are making it very clear to everyone that they are not available and are not interested. Since I have worked in high tech my whole life single women are very rare, so I am not sure how common this is in other parts of society.
I known one single successful female friend who every time we see her mentions the fact that she graduated from Harvard. We have nothing wrong with the fact that she did, but we don’t actually need to hear it every time (my wife and I graduated from good schools, but not Harvard). I doubt that this helps her get a date.
There are probably a million different things going on in a million different cases. I am quite glad that I have not had to deal with any of this for a few decades, but I suppose that my daughters do.
“have they abandoned going to church, taking a class, joining a special interest group to meet someone?”
Not abandoned. Here in Chicago, the summer beach volleyball leagues and winter improv classes are a huge meat market, which I mean in a mostly positive way. But they work better for mainstream college graduates than for PhDs, anesthesiologists, etc.
I have a charismatic, superstar lawyer friend who met her husband in improv class. He’s not a college graduate, and he’s the primary caretaker for their kids and works in his technical field part-time in the evening. I wouldn’t go so far as to call him a unicorn, but it’s an unusual pairing that works great for them.
“I’ve seen that all my life – with my mother, my wife, and my daughter, but especially with my son.”
Yep. My mother is a major national leader in her medical specialty, and my father a 9-5 grunt work lawyer. He basks in her glory and the admiration she gets from her community. It’s not a matter of tolerating it; he finds it thrilling, the way a cheerleader loves supporting a winning team. I haven’t come close to my mother’s professional achievements yet, but my husband is just like my father on this. He loves to come to my speaking engagements and alumni events. He doesn’t have an ounce of concern about his own masculinity. He’s just proud of me.
But these guys are HARD TO FIND. Full stop.