<p>obw-
Just curious- what is your educational background? I am not sure if our background/training is similar or not. As for the “rage” thing, though, with all due respect, I believe that the response was due not to the issues that were raised, but how they were raised. There have been several excellent threads about “things you would do differently” or “ten things not to do…”" etc. that gets a different response than starting a pushy parents confessional thread. I think you can ger the information and responses you are looking for if you consider changing your approach a bit.</p>
<p>jym: (1) I don’t think that people on this thread are really interested in us going into specific detail about our educational backgrounds and training. Also, talking about it simply serves to detract from the real purpose of this thread.</p>
<p>(2) In the above post, I admitted to the fact that I am often impolite and unrefined in my approach to my posts. That’s simply the style I have chosen to use on CC. I really am a nice guy…just think that my more controversial approach makes this site a little more interesting to read. I really am a very nice guy who is truly concerned about the issues I raise.</p>
<p>You may feel free to PM me with your background and training if you prefer not to post it here. You made some assumptions about our backgrounds, training and orientation that I am not certain is accurate (eg I didn’t say I had a family systems orientation). I do not know your background and training, and am interested in learning a bit more about it. </p>
<p>At any rate, FWIW, if you want your questions answered, which I would assume you do, all I am doing is suggesting that you pose them in a way that increases the likelikood you will get the responses you seek. If your intent is not to get an answer at all, but merely to present your beliefs about pushy parents and family values in the form of a question, well that is another thing entirely.</p>
<p>jym626, let obw have his thread about kids who are pushed too hard. Start your own to support kids who are happy that they were pushed. I’ve personally seen the ill effects of both approaches - sad underachievers who weren’t pushed (or encouraged), and kids who were neurotic wrecks or defiant dropouts because they were expected to satisfy an unreasonable parent. Surely some kids experience both extremes here.</p>
<p>I would hope all parents would aim for the nuturing middle.</p>
<p>I think there’s a lot of confusion around this issue. I see an assumption that high expectations leads to pushiness leads to stress leads to sickness. That chain can be broken at any point. Can you have high expectations without pushiness? Yes. Can you be stressed but not sick? Sure hope so! Can you be stressed without being pushed? Many students confess they push themselves.</p>
<p>It seems that many parents exhibit less than deft leadership (screaming at kids, threatening, boring lectures, setting them up for failure i.e. not providing crucial support). This bad behavior is completely separate from this issue of high expectaions.</p>
<p>I think it is well accepted that a hard/soft leadership style (meaning hard, or high, goals but “soft” on people - giving respect, support, paths for personal development) is most successful whether in sports, business, or child raising.</p>
<p>Let’s not demonize high standards just because some parents exhibit ugly behaviors. I believe we could find many examples of ugly behaviors in parents who think community college is over-ambitious.</p>
<p>Well said, geomom. </p>
<p>And treetop-
I am not meaning to hijack the thread by any means. OBW has acknowledged that this is his agenda, and it will appear again.</p>
<p>geomom: I don’t see anywhere where high standards have been “demonized” (your words) on this thread, and if you read the threads, no where does it say that ALL students experience the “pushy parent” syndrome.</p>
<p>Your response is just like many others I have seen on CC, that try to deflect from the issues I attempt to raise. It’s one more response which says something like, “yes, there are pushy parents who cause their children to get sick, but most parents are just fine.” Of course that’s the case, but I’m trying to bring attention to those situations in which parents ARE making their adolescents sick by putting too much pressure on them! Sadly, I’ve worked with way too many of those unfortunate students over the years. My mission is to reduce the # of students who have to go through this.</p>
<p>If you would like to start a separate thread that congratulates those parents who are doing a great job, I invite you to do so. But, in the best interests of our adolescents for whom this is not the case, I encourage you to keep this thread devoted to the issue I raised in the opening post.</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>Someone recently shared a story with me about an extremely high-achieving student who achieved the (supposed) pinnacle of high school academics by garnering numerous awards and accolades, and gaining admission to one of the most impressive universities in the world. Her parents pushed her to accomplish these things, and for years, everyone in the community knew that her parents were relentless in their pusuit of having her accomplish those goals.</p>
<p>The person who shared the story with me told me how sad it was on graduation day to see this student sitting on the stage, face sunken as a result of an eating disorder, gazing off into space with a blank expression on her face as though she didn’t even know that the graduation ceremony was going on around her. Yet, the parents were getting pats on the back and congratulatory comments on what a great job they had done and how proud of their daughter they should be.</p>
<p>Now, I know that some of you out there will say that the student’s eating disorder might have been caused by other circumstances, but according to the person who shared this story, this student’s problems were directty related to the pressure to succeed put on her by her parents.</p>
<p>This scenario is a perfect reflection of the point I’m trying to get across.</p>
<p>OBW, Sorry you misread my post. I wasn’t saying that it doesn’t matter that children are sick and stressed out! I was trying to draw a finer distinction about what the problem is. There are healthy ways to achieve and unhealthy ways. By saying “pushing” is a problem I think you alienate those who think pushing yourself to well in a sport, picking teachers who will push you, pushing your child to be brave, ethical, and well as academically successful are good things.</p>
<p>I think you need to define more clearly what aspect of striving causes the problem. I gave a few examples: demanding performance by threatening, not providing support for the task that are expected. I’m sure you could provide many of your own.</p>
<p>Sorry, cross-posted. That (the eating disordered girl at graduation) is an example. Although, you’re right, you are assume a lot about cause and effect.</p>
<p>Also, I’m no expert about eating disorders, but every friend I have talked to who has gone through this had their eating disorder start when the coach told them they “had” to lose weight. However, that’s not a representative sample because I tend to have very athletic friends.</p>
<p>Just last year the boy down the street devolped bulemia. Turns out he was making himself vomit because the wrestling coach told him he could start varsity if he just lost ten pounds (when he was already at a lean 120lbs) and told him not to tell his parents. When his mom found out she was livid, and eventually got the coach fired.</p>
<p>Eating disorders may sometime be cause by generalized pressure and anxiety originating from the parents, but I suspect in many cases the motivation is something much more specific.</p>
<p>I assumed that it was a given that I was not referring to parents who, in a healthy way, encourage their children to do their best and strive to be successful. I am referring more to the “pushy” parents who are causing their children to fall victim to eating disorders, depression, anxiety attacks, low self-esteem, etc.</p>
<p>I would still appreciate a better understanding of the background and training from which you hail, OBW. Any reason you will not share?</p>
<p>I would still appreciate a better understanding of the background and training from which you hail, OBW. Any reason you will not share?</p>
<p>That would help!</p>
<p>My parents don’t pressure me at all… they would be more than happy if I decided to attend a community college</p>
<p>Everyone I knew with an eating disorder had been sexually abused.</p>
<p>Very astute observation, mathmom. Abuse survivors often develop corollary control issues to compensate for something over which they had no control.</p>
<p>OBW, are you trying to collect anecdotal evidence for a book about pushy parents? You have started several “provoking” threads about overly-involved parents. While you state many, many times about your experience as a counselor, you do not seem to be posting advice on threads where students are asking for advice.</p>
<p>So what’s the deal?</p>
<p>
You know, I’ve been waiting for this myself. For someone who spent 30 years as a guidance counselor, OBW, you’ve been pretty stingy with helpful advice. Do you have any intention of providing it?</p>
<p>This board is fortunate to have someone like carolyn, an admissions professional as well as a parent, who generously shares information on specific colleges, scholarships, deadlines, the finaid process, and so much more. In addition, we have unquestionably expert parent posters such as Northstarmom, marite, sybbie, soozievt, curmudgeon (I could never list them all) who also take the time to assist this community with concrete, reliable advice on every aspect of this confusing rite of passage. Someone with your background should be a huge asset to CC. So why aren’t you?</p>
<p>Instead, you post thread after thread on the themes of “Ivies/Elites/parents/boarding schools = bad.” Although these are usually posed as blinkingly wide-eyed questions, your agenda is always clear. One of my favorites is here, entitled “This Can’t Be True”: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=305625[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=305625</a> You know perfectly well that there are some over-the-top parents who’ll do ridiculous things to help their kids into an Ivy. It’s abnormal, not prevalent (as your posts imply), and such parents usually get a pretty tough time from CC regulars.</p>
<p>If you want people on this board to think you’re “old but wise,” you’ve gotta come up with a reason. You did, after all, write this back in February:
</p>
<p>Absolutely excellent post, frazzled. You hit the nail on the head.</p>
<p>How about it, OBW? Surely you have at least a few words of wisdom to give others from your so-called 30 years in the field instead of just making sweeping statements for others to comment on. All the rest of us here on CC are either asking for advice or giving it in areas we have some experience in. It’s a nice little thing called “give and take”.</p>
<p>I haven’t participated on any of your previous threads, OBW, but have read a few of them, including this one. I personally do not need to know your credentials or background, and it suffices that you say you are a retired guidance counselor of thirty years (which you have repeated many times). </p>
<p>As frazzled wrote, all of the threads you have started, along with subsequent posts, are provacative in nature. You pose a question, and each post/question seems to have an agenda or mantra. It feels as if you are making broad generlizations and assumptions about parents whose children attend elite colleges (plus a few other issues like boarding school parents or parents who use private counselors). I don’t doubt that you have met some families where the parents are pushy and competitive and have an “Ivy or bust” mentality and put pressure on their children. Such parents do exist. They may be more prevalent in certain communities. But they are NOT the majority. As frazzled mentions, even when such an attitude comes up on CC by a parent poster (or even a student poster), many of the regular contributors on CC tend to really give that poster a “talking to” about the perils of such an approach to college admisssions. In other words, it is frowned upon by most here. </p>
<p>What I see in so many of your posts is that you ASSUME that any parent who has sent their child to an elite college must have been very pushy and put pressure on their child, and in so doing, has caused great harm to their child who now has a myriad of problems. While you likely have come in contact with such situations, that is not only not the norm, but it is an assumption that those who have kids at such colleges (or boarding schools, or use private counselors) all fit this same mode. </p>
<p>That’s where I differ from your view. I also think you are stuck in these asumptions and broad generalizations, that it comes across as insulting to a huge number of parents here who don’t fit under that sweeping umbrella but who DO see that there are some problems out there in SOME families who are pressuring their kids with an “Ivy or bust” mentality. </p>
<p>From personal experience, as a parent, it would bother me to have someone assume that because my children happen to attend elite colleges, that they were pushed to attend these or that they ONLY wanted to attend these, that they have been stressed out, etc. The reason that would bother me is that it is so far from the reality of their situation. My husband and I like to joke that our kids PUSHED US! We didn’t care where our kids attended colleges and let them apply anywhere they wanted and gave no opinions as to which schools we liked or not. We didn’t care what field they went into either. We didn’t make them get certain grades, do ECs, improve the SAT score, nada. Our children happen to be internally motivated and driven (luck of the draw, I assume), wanted to do their best in school. They adored their ECs and pushed us to let them do all that they did. Their EC interests began at a young age and we did expose them to many activities when they were younger. They fell in love with these pursuits and would not give any up and begged us to let them do it all. They begged to go to summer programs (in their case, these were NOT academic ones). As far as SATs, each one set a personal goal/bar that they wanted to get over (not as high as some here set) and were content as long as they got over a certain point, in order to not have their SATs hold them back since they had excellent academic records. They each took the SAT twice. Whatever they got was fine with me and we didn’t “make” them get any certain score. We followed their lead as to which colleges interested them and we were willing to take them to visit those schools. My kids have never seen college rankings and I couldn’t tell you where my kids’ colleges rank. One of my kids had some Ivy schools on her list, but could care less if she attended an Ivy. She even preferred two schools on her list over one of the Ivies she got into. She wanted a school that was challenging for her level. The name of the school mattered not. Even in college now, both kids strive to get the best grades they can achieve, not because we have ever asked them to or would care if they didn’t get straight As, but because they wouldn’t be happy any other way. They LIKE to do their best and they CRAVE challenge and continue to NOT take the easy route. They CRAVE their EC passions which they continue in college. They ELECT to do way more than they HAVE to because they seek those activities out and want to do them. We may even say, why are you taking so much on? And they’ll give very valid reasons why they want to do whatever extra thing it is. They never use the reason, “this will get me ahead…get me into grad school…etc.” Are we asking them to do all this over and beyond stuff? No, but we could never stop them. They are motivated driven types of people who seek out experiences. I have met many kids like them at their colleges. </p>
<p>You also mention hiring private counselors and that as a symptom of pushy parents who want “Ivy”. While frazzleld mentioned my name in her post as a parent poster, I am ALSO an independent college counselor. Guess what? MANY of my clients are students with a CR/M SAT in the 950-1100 range and with GPAs of 2.7-3.2. Are they Ivy material? No. Their parents simply are seeking guidance with the process. Plenty of people want help with the overwhelming process that is college admissions. It is not just “pushy” parents and not just those who want “Ivy or bust.” So, your assumption about that is wrong. In fact, I would imagine as a guidance counselor, you had to help all types. Then again, maybe you were a GC at an elite prep school. But all types of students need help with this process. Some get it from their informed parents (which is why many parents seek out CC for the wonderful resource that it is), some get it from a guidance counselor, some from a private counselor who can devote more one on one time, or some are floundering. Most parents who come to CC are informing themselves so they can guide their child in this process. Many parents here also HELP other parents, particularly if they have been through the process already or have equipped themselves with much knowledge. </p>
<p>YOU are a guidance counselor, and thus you COULD have something to offer the folks here on CC. Why not join in a conversation where someone has asked for advice, or parents are discsussing a topic, or helping a student who doesn’t have a parent/counselor helping them and seeks help here? You could OFFER something, as so many others of us do. Rather than provoke the parents who come here who try to guide their children and rather than assume they are all bad parents and must be PUSHING their children because shame, they happen to have kids who qualify or would fit at a very selective school, why don’t you join a conversation and give some advice or opinions? Something to think about.</p>