<p>Question for the dressed-up crowd here: why is make-up necessary for a woman to look “nice”? Apparently the faces that men were born with are okay, but women need fixing?:)</p>
<p>Cangel, thank you; I was actually asking the question rhetorically because I was disappointed in the tone discussion had taken. I must tell you that I always enjoy your posts because they are so sensible and thoughtful.</p>
<p>Boy, miss a day around here…what a change in the mood…</p>
<p>…the original post asked if females were perceived any differently in the south…I really don’t think so…we value intelligence and ability regardless of the gender. There is no female dumbing down to fit in. In our city (250,000) we have a female 3 term mayor, female school superintendent, the editor of our paper is female and there are plenty of other women in positions of authority…</p>
<p>… there are cultural differences that students need to be aware of… nothing of such significance that should make a student from Cal. not consider Vandy or Emory simply because they are in the south…</p>
<p>…Big cities often feel much the same regardless of location, so do the suburbs across the country…rural areas are what define a region’s personality…</p>
<p>One nice thing about living in the south today is you can choose to participate in the traditions that have been around or not without any consequence… My niece who lives in the same town and is the same age as my D. participates in Cotillion with her dad…neither my D nor I will have any part of it… but we notice and appreciate the hospitality that is a southern tradition…</p>
<p>I thought you might be rhetorical, I also thought the original question was not exactly answered. Frazzledad’s last point is well taken, you can choose to participate or not, some activities you have to be born into the right family to participate, others you can buy a place.</p>
<p>You guys would find Mardi Gras really strange, elitist and old-fashioned, and in general ask the question that we asked when we moved here - what’s the point? And that after having lived in the South all my life.</p>
<p>I’ll second Cangel, and also reply to Mattmom, at least with respect to Emory (my son is a sophomore there and absolutely loves it) there doesn’t seem to be much if any of the stereotypical southern thing going on–Emory could be anywhere in the country. When deciding which colleges to look at, my son initially did not want to visit Emory because it was in the “south” and he, too, believed all the stereotypes. But his college counselor prevailed on him to at least take a look, and once he visited the campus, he fell in love with it, and the rest is happy history. My son is the type to wear pjs to class (and often does) but he also cleans up nicely when the situation call for it (which it also often does). The girls in his group of friends are all strong and interesting individuals and I don’t think that make up or dress is their predominant interest–they vary their look according to the occaision. Some belong to sororities and some don’t, my impression is that at least at Emory, being in a greek organization does not dictate your social life as it may on some campuses.</p>
<p>I was never interested in sororities but my S has mentioned that he might consider a frat. But I really am posting to note that clothes matter for men too, even here in the often liberal and progressive NW where people attend the theater in Columbia Sportswear jackets as well as fine topcoats, and no one cares too much. </p>
<p>My S has gotten involved lately in a very progressive group that focused on registering voters and is now looking at attacking the perennial problem around here of proper school funding. And he commented that while everyone was taken seriously, those men who arrived straight from work in suits seemed to make an impression that was somehow diifferent. He didn’t really articulate it but it goes along with what others have said about how dress helps in the professional and business worlds, regardless of gender. </p>
<p>He also commented that he was interested in business frats, where once a week the kids wear business dress, for which they get graded. Yikes! But he thought it was not unwise - you had to start somewhere.</p>
<p>Whatever you choose, I do think it makes sense to pay attention to the cultural norms and then decide if they work/matter for you. As he is considering two schools in the south - which don’t seem too “southern” but will have their share of all kinds of kids from the south - I have appreciated this thread in all of its elements.</p>
<p>One good thing about this thread is that I feel alot better about my son attending Duke in the fall. Of course, I am thrilled that he got into his dream school, but I was concerned that it would be too “southern” for me. I am glad to hear that it has a good mix of students. I am also discovering that Orlando is really not that southern compared to other parts of the south. Our high school does not have a formal friday. Actually, Friday is the day when alot of kids wear pj pants. One of my son’s friends wears his smile face pjs almost everyday. My daughter favors Hollister brand. At least it is a little cheaper than Abercrombie. I wish that she would wear a variety of brands, but that is what she likes. I rarely see girls wear dresses. Oh well. Orlando is not San Francisco, but it could be worse! CJ</p>
<p>Reply to Garland,
my face does not need any fixing. If I remember I will wear lip gloss but thats it. Like I said earlier, working out is better than makeup!</p>
<p>Cangel, I actually have a similar problem with the whole Westchester affect as well and much of the O.C. thing is overly dramatized though I find spending an afternoon at Fashion Island (Newport Beach) to be an existentially depressing experience.</p>
<p>I’m not a complete Hun when it comes to matters of appearance and dress. Certainly, I wouldn’t expect any attorney to appear in court looking slovenly…it’s part of the job. And TheMom cranks it up a few notches on those rare days that she’s having a meeting with the Chancellor, yada yada. </p>
<p>But a general social expectation of putting on warpaint when going out on any occasion and being judged thereby is, imnsvho, insupportable. It’s the external expectation, the social code, not the dress or appearance, that I find offensive.</p>
<p>As for a woman’s internal preferences, I got a lesson when I was about 20. Me to g/f on way to special concert: something along the lines of “I’m not wild about that dress.” G/f to me: “I wore it to please myself, not you.” Ow ow ow ow ow ow!!! Maybe in another 40 years I’ll forget it.</p>
<p>Wow, this thread is really interesting! </p>
<p>I live in the bay area but I used to live in Texas when I was little. I visited Houston (is it even considered that “southern??”) over Thanksgiving to see my cousin and look at Rice. I was amazed when I went to the mall and saw that all the girls my age were heavily made up (including some who looked a bit younger)! Here, everybody pretty much dresses how they want and the girls definitely wear a lot less makeup. </p>
<p>Just thought that was interesting!</p>
<p>TheDad-
Did you also tell your former girlfriend that her butt looked big in the dress too? 
Did they teach you to talk that way to a “lady” when you were growing up in the south?? :D</p>
<p>Jym, I wouldn’t have dreamed of making an anatomical comment lest my own anatomy be rapidly readjusted. We all do dumb things when we’re 20 but try convincing an 18-year-old of that. </p>
<p>Aside from that, I didn’t grow up in the South. TheMom would say that sometimes I’ve never quite grown up anyway, e.g., reading MAD Magazine, adolsescent sense of humor, etc.</p>
<p>[My stepfather was a mathematician doing oil survey work in the pre-computer days and I lived in Mississippi, Texas, and Louisiana as a small child. If I’m very tired, have had a glass of wine too much, or am around others who speak them naturally, my vowels will still broaden out on a few words. Which is funny, because my “natural” accent is pretty much like an educated damnyankee that’s listened to too much "Masterpiece Theater] </p>
<p>TheDad-
I’m confused— Didn’t you say the above about a page back??? Sounded to me like you grew up in the south. Can you clarify so I can tease you correctly? :)</p>
<p>Jym, I left the South at an early age. If I had to peg a place where I “grew up,” it would probably be suburban Chicago (Evanston).</p>
<p>I’ve lived a lot of different places but the vast majority of my life is now West Coast and I’m mostly Californian. Well, it’s too long a story but through a fluke I’m actually a California native though I left the state when I was 1 (no control). Besides Chicago and SoCal, I’ve lived in D.C. And there’s something strange going on in that by sending my D to New England, some of New England is metabolizing in me.</p>
<p>What I think is cosmically funny about this discussion is that many in California find me a little “reserved” in the Midwest/New Englands sense.</p>
<p>Re: how women are perceived in the South v. other areas of the country…</p>
<p>Having grown up in New England, I’ll be the FIRST to say that it is no haven of feminist thought. High school was rough, in that as a woman who loves science and math, I was teased mercilessly at best. At worst, I just was not as good as the boys. We got the same grades, the same 800s on the SAT (!), but women were not perceived to be as good in math and science. The teachers were different, though - more feminists than their students! </p>
<p>College was a mix - really the first time that I found teachers who really didn’t believe in women (one particularly comes to mind - most were great). Students there were mostly understanding of women in science, and the engineering school had twice the national percentage of women. Downside: some people from home kept telling me to drop out of engineering because I “didn’t have the personality for it.” Five guys just kept repeating that freshman year; five and a half years later, I’m the only one of them with an engineering degree. Ha!</p>
<p>Generally noticed that men in the North don’t really respect their mothers (and, as a result, don’t respect girlfriends). They hide behind feminism, saying that it is a double standard (as in, it gives women all sorts of benefits without the downside. Had one guy say to me that if women want the same jobs as men, they should act like men - be interested in cars and all of that. ugh!). They use feminism to treat women poorly, basically refusing to do the traditional gentlemanly things and simultaneously demanding that girls “put out” and please them. As my cousin said - “Hello! I eat! Take me out to dinner!” </p>
<p>Yet New Englanders look down upon the South as being someplace where women aren’t taken seriously… </p>
<p>So I moved to the South (as in, south of the Mason-Dixon line). I’ve yet to see (though it hasn’t been very long) the out-and-out sexism I saw in New England. I have, however, met many men my age who respect women… because their mothers taught them to. The girls at the undergrad certainly dress up for football games (ugh!), but it’s a different scene at the l.s… Most of the girls here really do appreciate the way that men were brought up - the “surface things” of holding doors open or actually taking them on dates instead of, well, fill in the blank. Maybe I’ll post again in a year, screaming to go back up North - but I don’t think it’s a haven of feminism up there. At least people are nice about it down here.</p>
<p>good to hear your experience was positive…good luck in law school…</p>
<p>Thank you FrazzledDad. :)</p>
<p>Thanks ariesathena, that clears at least that part up for me- D’s requirement for a college with a “dating environment”. I thought it was somehow about the number or quality of males not the type of interaction. Duh. Now I get it. BTW I loved the “Hello.I eat!..” Priceless.</p>
<p>Post edited after being struck by a fit of good sense.</p>
<p>I’m outnumbered in a house full of uppity women…TheMom, TheD, even TheCat.
I think women are a lot better off when it’s not a matter of who bestows what upon them.</p>
<p>Thinking of this thread while driving around on errands earlier today, I also try to never mistake politeness for respect, whether giving or receiving.</p>
<p>just read through this <em>very</em> long discussion, and i can see both sides of the issue, and i understand that in the south it is just more commonplace to look ‘presentable’ at all times, but cangel, i feel as if you’re doing your daughter a real disservice by placing so much on outward appearance (*presumably as much as you place on her inside qualities) i just feel as if mothers should be supportive, rather than suggesting that their daughters get makeovers before graduation…yuck.</p>