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<p>Amen. Even many of our 14-year-old son’s male friends call us Mr. and Mrs. and shake our hands. For the ones we’ve known since they were very small, first names (and hugs!) are ok with us too, but we do expect a certain degree of formality from kids we don’t know very well.</p>
<p>Allmusic, why is it a comparison, or a “this is better than that” scenario? We know many, many couples who are very happily married, most for 20+ and even a few for 30+ years. They seem to be “equal partnerships” in that at various times, either the husband or the wife is doing the heavy lifting, for example, if one is gets sick, or becomes unexpectantly unemployed, etc. It all seems to even itself out over time - if you tracked these relationships over time on a spreadsheet, it would almost certainly all even out to 50/50. These couples also appear to be as madly in love as they must have been at their weddings. They’re incredibly fun to be around, too, as they are always so happy. </p>
<p>We also know at least two couples who have been together 20+ years who have NEVER married, and they are as devoted to each other and every bit as committed as the married couples (although these two couples do not have any children - I suspect that if they had children, they would RUN to the marriage license office). </p>
<p>And then, there are a lot of people like me - happily dating and enjoying very nice relationships, but with no real interest in getting married in the short term, although ten - 15 years out, I think I will consider get married, and some of my single friends think they might, too. These people are a lot of fun to socialize with, but seem to operate at a far higher level of stress - the single most common reason none of us have married is because we’re so intently focused on business or career matters, and anyone we’re dating sort of has to take a back seat - long married couples are more fun to socialize with, as they seem more relaxed, calmer. </p>
<p>Oddly, we don’t seem to have even one single person in our social circle who is divorced and single - cannot say why, perhaps it’s because the entire concept of divorce is so appalling, at least to me. Marriage is a vow and a very serious commitment; it’s supposed to be forever. Perhaps it’s overly judgmental on my part, but I don’t think very highly of people who don’t take their commitments very seriously, especially when there are children involved. </p>
<p>Bottom line, everyone is entitled to their choices and what works for them, and what one person wants isn’t necessarily what a complete stranger across the internet wants.</p>
<p>Totally agree with Motherdear’s post. I cannot imagine ANYONE - male or female - using profanity in my presence, EVER, and if my daughter were to bring such a person home, I would be shocked - just shocked.</p>
<p>Her boyfriends do address me as “Ms.”, and I always invite them to call me by my first name - and I prefer they shake my hand, but, oddly, they always seem to greet me with hugs, even ignoring the outstretched hand. Her female friends do to, I don’t quite understand that, but, if that’s what they prefer to do…oh well, as long as they are exhibiting gestures of respect, I’m good.</p>
<p>latetoschool - Based upon my experience, leopards don’t change their spots. You will be as selfish in your marriage as you are in your dating relationships. Your view toward the financial balancing act will be along the lines of “What’s yours (husband’s) is ours and what’s mine is mine”. Again, your posts are a wonderful educational tool - because I’ll bet you never let those dates or potential dates or men, in general, hear you calling yourself “the crown jewel”. </p>
<p>What a piece of work!</p>
<p>But, beyond your personal relationships. As long as women demand “unequal treatment” in the social arena, they will be treated unequally in the business sector. One is either an equal or not. You cannot have it both ways - not long term, not big picture.</p>
<p>latetoschool- you are in the business world and no one has ever used profanity in your presence? What planet do YOU live on? Not the same one as I do! I am not endorsing it, but let’s get real here, it is not an uncommon event.</p>
<p>LTS, you do have a daughter, do you not? Was that child produced <horrors> out of wedlock or did you NOT take your intital martial commitment “very seriously”, since divorce is so “appalling” and such?</horrors></p>
<p>(Actually, I am not a proponent of divorce either, but I do see times when circumstances necessitate such action)</p>
<p>Allmusic, I have never been married, and don’t want to be - not for another several years. I do think I will get married eventually, but don’t wish to do so any time soon. In my mind, marriage is a very, very serious commitment, and requires an incredible amount of work and dedication, and I’m just not interested in doing that any time soon. I think that’s totally o.k., and even desirable - not everyone wants to be married.</p>
<p>LOL reflectivemom you’re right, I’m very selfish. I come first, period, and I freely admit it, and even make sure everyone else knows it. But that’s the cool thing about life - we’re free to make choices; it’s my choice, and I’m very happy with my choice (and I’m free to change it any time I decide I need a new choice). </p>
<p>But we’ve come so far afield of the original point of the thread, which is the question of raising sons to be gentlemen: in my world, the gentleman pays for dates, always, no exceptions. And, that’s entirely fair - in exchange, the gentleman gets the pleasure of my company. But that does NOT mean that there is a consistent financial inequality - going “out” on dates is only one very small part of a durable modern dating relationship that may or may not be headed towards intimacy, or marriage. There is much give and take - a date may be reciprocated, for example, with a home cooked meal. Or perhaps with a picnic where one party supplies all of the materials and the other chooses the location, time and setting. Or perhaps one party arranges their travel plans (at greater expense or inconvenience) to accomodate the other’s schedule. Or perhaps one supplies access to an event, or to a social segment, and the other chooses the timing of attending the event, or reciprocates in some other way. There is much give on both sides along the way, with each party enthusiastically contributing. Sometimes that contribution is cash (paying for dates), but it may also be time, talent, emotional support, access to social or business opportunities, etc. What a true gentleman does NOT do is remain in a relationship where his intended romantic interest just takes and takes and takes and takes, and never reciprocates in any way…even if she’s of far lessor economic means, the female can make very nice but inexpensive dinners, get interested in the activities he wants to share, send thank you notes, be gracious and kind to his family and friends, and generally be very enthusiastic about the activities he wants to do or new events he might wish to try. </p>
<p>MOWC, I don’t know of anyone in my world who uses profanity, at least never in my presence. I doubt they do anywhere else, either - it just isn’t done…</p>
<p>latetoschool, stated: “you’re right, I’m very selfish. I come first, period, and I freely admit it, and even make sure everyone else knows it.”</p>
<p>How nice for your daughter.</p>
<p>Reflectivemom, why the negativity? I happen to think it’s perfectly o.k., even necessary, for women - of all ages - to choose to be selfish about themselves, and their opportunities - at various times in their lives. I also happen to think it’s perfectly o.k. to engage in a life-long commitment (such as marriage) where shared partnership and teamwork is a must, and selfishness is completely innappropriate, if not completely disastrous. </p>
<p>I’m not critical of anyone else’s choices. I simply posted that I expect my dates to pay for the dates, and that is all I will accept. If other people think women should go dutch on dates, or even outright pay for dates, well, that’s their choice, and they’re welcome to it. I just won’t be accepting dates with their sons, brothers, etc. And, those same men will not be dating people like me. I’m totally, completely fine with that. Why cannot you be “fine” with my choices too? I’m happy, and presumably, you’re very happy too. So what’s so wrong with having differences about how we choose to live our lives, and how we establish if someone meets our individuated standard of what is a “gentleman”? Your dates, husband, sons, etc. don’t have to please me. My dates don’t have to please you, or your female relatives and friends. So what’s your issue, and why the negative attitude?</p>
<p>That you are even puzzled by the fact that one is bothered by a mother’s proud claim of selfishness says it all.</p>
<p>Reflectivemom, how can you possibly be emotionally engaged - “bothered” - if you will - by a complete stranger’s opinion, expressed over the internet? My choices are mine to make, and, there is absolutely no danger whatsoever that my choices are going to sneak into your living room, disrupt your life, or influence your well being in any way. Similarly, your opinions and choices don’t bother me, not even slightly. I might find them interesting (opinions that differ from mine are always very interesting, and even fun to read most of the time), but not even slightly upsetting or troubling. I don’t have to live in your world, nor you in mine. So why do my choices and opinions bother you so much? </p>
<p>If a man doesn’t like how a woman conducts a date - for example, if he doesn’t like it if she expects him to pay, his choice is very simple: he just does not date that person any more, and, he finds someone to date who is willing to pick up the check, or at least split it. If he finds that a certain woman is too selfish or self-centered, his choice is the same - he can find someone to date who is more to his liking. What’s so hard about that?</p>
<p>I’m really not trying to pick on you, LTS, but your post has me so curious, especially since you claim to be a career woman, so obstensibly, you care about equal rights and equal pay for women…and yet, you want such inequality, at least financially, in your dating relationships. It just doesn’t jibe for me, not that it has to, as it is your life, and not mine, but I am just trying to understand you here.</p>
<p>However, I don’t understand this:</p>
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<p>So, if a man can’t provide cash, he is a goner? What if he could provide emotional support or access to business opportunities? No good?</p>
<p>See, I would think the gentleman would be the one who provided emotional support, since he clearly cared about and listened to the woman. That would be much more valuable to me than the paid dinner, but maybe that’s just me.</p>
<p>It’s funny because when I read the title of this thread I wasn’t thinking about who pays for what on dates. To me it’s irrelevant and dependent on the situation. My son has paid for the few dates he has been on (movies, lunch, school dance tickets) but a couple times a girl has paid for something during the date as well. It’s a bit different when it’s teenagers but still, paying =/= gentlemen IMO. There is so much more to it than that.
And BTW, while nobody uses profanity directed towards me it’s certainly something most people hear on a regular basis in general conversation. Especially among teenagers. But then maybe we all have different ideas of what ‘profanity’ is so it’s hard to judge.</p>
<p>My boyfriend has undoubtedly use profanity in front of my mom and she has in front of him. Just out of curiosity, where do you all live? It may be regional, most people I know are the same.</p>
<p>I am opposed to profanity from both sexes. I grew up in the Boston area and currently live near DC.</p>
<p>I loathe profanity, and would find it upsetting if my D’s boyfriend (in the future LOL!) used it around me. That does seem very rude; even if they used it when chumming around with other teens, curbing it in front of the parents is just courteous.</p>
<p>awww…i somehow find this thread to be mildly cute :)</p>
<p>I’ve never once said ■■■■■, but…you do the math!!!</p>
<p>Allmusic, you’re assuming I care about or am even slightly interested in equal “rights” for women in the workforce, and equal pay. I don’t care, and have zero interest. I don’t know where you get that from anything I’ve ever posted. I believe men and women alike are responsible for creating their own unique opportunities, and, I expect men and women alike to earn money equal to the quality of their work, based on their individual abilities to “sell” their skill sets and core competencies to the highest and best possible bidder, and because they are extremely opportunistic, and because hopefully they’re clever enough to maximize excellent choices while minimizing stupid or unprofitable choices.</p>
<p>You keep wanting to somehow merge business with socializing, and, these are two entirely different topics, and interactions within each call for totally different behavior and interpersonal interactions for men and women alike. Expressed differently, when I’m doing my work, I’m completely androgynous (as is eveyone else); when I’m on a date, I’m 100% girl (oh, and my date would be a gentleman). All of which has nothing to do with the original purpose of this thread, but, perhaps this might help you understand.</p>
<p>As to emotional support vs. dinner, why do you see that as either/or? I fully expect BOTH.</p>
<p>I don’t know what to think here. On the one hand I also have a daughter and I want whoever she ends up with to appreciate her but I also want her to appreciate him. And they should both accept each others faults, which they will both have plenty of. As for my son, same deal. I can’t imagine anyone living up to the fantasy some here seem to insist upon and if they did, I’d advise my kids to run.</p>