Are you raising your sons to be "gentlemen?"

Parent Cafe
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<p>It’s always somewhat baffled me how “gentlemanly” nowadays seems to be a code for “treating girls in an old-fashioned manner.”</p>

<p>I’m a girl who’s personally all for manners (who isn’t?), and I will hold doors, be polite, give up a seat if someone needs it more - etc. I expect guys to have the same level of common courtesy. I would never expect anyone to do anything for me merely because of my gender, and while I wouldn’t necessarily be offended, it would certainly be awkward. And yes, I generally split the bill, and I don’t undertstand guys who absolutely insist on paying (or those who think they should) - there’s a certain point where wanting to follow that tradition when the other party clearly doesn’t becomes far ruder than just going along.</p>

<p>My parents didn’t start out by teaching me a long list of rules, either. Instead, they explained to me that people deserved to be treated respectfully and that there are certain conventions governing society that help things run more smoothly. As I grew up, they showed me how various niceties fit into that scheme. I’d like to flatter myself that it’s worked. My only real deviation from polite society is that I’m prone to the occasional fits of swearing (believe me, working on the school paper at 11:30 at night with two tests the next day necessitates it), but I’ve learned only to do it around people who are my age and who I’m very sure don’t mind. </p>

<p>But…yeah. I think the world can always use more common sense politeness, but I’m not convinced it’s an endangered species. For what it’s worth, I attend a very large public high school in an urban area. Almost every student holds the door and people generally say “excuse me.” Only time I’ve ever had a door slammed in my face - without apology - was by a teacher. How often do parents act as role models by being really polite to their children and their friends?</p>

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<p>latetoschool,</p>

<p>Your message was a great learning tool. I showed it to my son and told him if he ever met a girl with similar views to run not walk to the nearest exit.</p>

<p>Until reading your message, I honestly didn’t believe there were those who could be so selfish - neither did he. Now he’s been warned!</p>

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<p>DS has learned how to open doors for women and let women/children off elevators first. I did not have to teach him respect for women as he was raised in a single parent (mom) home with his sister - great teacher!</p>

<p>I do believe whoever asks the other person out on a date should pay for the date (usually the man). I’ve been on 0% dates where men would accept $ towards the check. As a woman you can offer if you feel like it but if it’s taken up, I would move on IMO.</p>

<p>My Grandmother used to say, generous of $ = generous of heart, cheap of $ = cold of heart.</p>

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<p>How did such traditions originate? Guys holding doors open for girls, letting them go first, giving up seats for them? Why is it considered respectful to do those things? I think many people have been so conditioned to think that they’re polite, socially accepted norms that they just accept those traditions blindly. Why shouldn’t girls be expected to hold the door open for guys and guys to hold the door open for other guys? I’m hoping that PrimetimeMom, LFWB Dad, and Latetoschool could respond.</p>

<p>I think guys appreciate it too when the door is held open for them. On several occasions, I have held the door open for other guys (I’m a guy) just because I felt like it, and all seemed flattered and genuinely happy by it. It didn’t even matter that they were taller or older or whatever.</p>

<p>Cheers, have you ever said a “How you doin’?” greeting without really caring for the response because it had become such an automatic thing to say?</p>

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<p>On the $$ and dating thing: people who share decisions about $$$ are probably egalitarian about other things as well. Not to get too Jesuitical, but there’s a difference between splitting a check to save money and splitting a check to create a shared partnership.</p>

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<p>I don’t know how many customs of courtesy originated, but girls should be as well mannered as boys. I have two girls as well, and we teach them to open the door for themselves if they are there first and to open to hold the door for ANYBODY who might be reasonably behind them.</p>

<p>They have always said yes and no; and thank you and you’re welcome; and have been taught not to interrupt conversations, just like their older brother. They have decided to start using “Sir” and “Ma’am”, but only because their brother, whom they idolize told them it is a way to show respect to those people you like. (They are too young to grasp, the subtly of rank or perceived rank, but positive feedback from adults has sort of made it a habit for them now). They however, have refrained from “Sir/Ma’am sandwiches”.</p>

<p>They sit up straight, chew with their mouths closed and know which fork or spoon to use.</p>

<p>The girls aren’t old enough to date, but I think we’ve taught them that sharing is good, so I think offering to pay their share would come naturally to them. They have also been taught to accept kindnesses graciously, so if a guy were to pay, they would say thank you.</p>

<p>My son offers to pay on dates, but pretty much plays it by ear. I asked him about the latetoschool type of girls and he said, he only dates girls who he’d like as a friend even if they didn’t become romantic, and he said friends don’t act like latetoschool to each other. That’s not anything specifically, he was taught, but the culmination of lessons growing up. Makes me think we did a few things right.</p>

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<p>LFWB, you hit the nail on the head - if it’s “friends”, then, either the restaurant tab is split, or, there’s an understanding of “I’ll get this one, you get the next one” etc. Or, if a group, the final bill is simply divided equally, regardless of who ate/drank what. </p>

<p>If it’s business, I don’t expect to be “equal” - I expect to achieve the position of being “superior”, and, in business, everyone is androgynous. In that case, the person who initiated the invite, or the person who is the host to the visitor, pays the bill (but these things are non-issues because everyone understands the other party is expensing the receipts). The only difference is with public sector relationships - usually, government executives who have a role in anti-corruption or law enforcement have policies where they cannot accept a paid meal, and, in those cases, separate checks are requested. </p>

<p>If it’s personal/romantic, whole different story. I’m the ultimate prize, the crown jewel, it’s an honor and a priviledge to have a dinner date with me, and, I expect to be treated like gold, and, among other non-negotiable expectations, do fully expect the gentleman to pay. It’s not a question of money - it’s a question of how I am treated. “Sharing” comes in when I reciprocate - perhaps by inviting the gentleman over for a home-cooked meal, etc. (and in those cases I certainly do NOT expect my guest to whip out his checkbook and write a check for half the price of the groceries, plus the labor of cooking, or the cost of the utilities to clean up afterwards, etc.). There are men who expect their dates to pay half, or even pick up the full check, but, those are not the type of men I would ever date (and there is absolutely no shortage of nice men to date who understand this - in fact, I sort of assumed this was universally understood). BTW, I always, always send a thank you note, card, etc., or, if the relationship is very established, there are other ways of reciprocating - a coveted book, a bottle of wine, even flowers sent to his office, etc. - it’s never, ever about gobble up the free meals, and the man is constantly shelling out money while I contribute little or nothing. </p>

<p>There is one interesting exception - I date a very nice man who is European, and, he once told me that in Europe, he actually has to ask the woman if it is o.k. for him to pay the restaurant tab, as women will actually get offended if he assumes he is paying, or, if he tries to pay without asking. He doesn’t like this btw and prefers to pay the full tab - he rather hates the practice of splitting the bill, and he really, really hates it when the woman tries to pay. Perhaps that’s why he likes to date me :)</p>

<p>Primetimemom, I have never, ever encountered a man who has asked me, or expected me, to pay a portion of the bill on a date. If I were in such a situation, I would happily, cheerfully pay what was asked, but, I would never date the man ever again - in fact, I would never even accept his phone calls again…</p>

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<p>Latetoschool’s post is just plain scary.</p>

<p>You’re the “ultimate prize”, the “crown jewel”? LOL! I am glad there are men willing to treat you in the way you expect to be treated, but quite frankly, I thought your way of thinking went out with Scarlett O’Hara. ;)</p>

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<p>I don’t have a problem with latetoschools post. Well, maybe the ultimate prize, crown jewel, honor, priviledge, gold thing is over the top but the general idea I agree with.</p>

<p>So I am hopelessly old fashioned. Oh, well.</p>

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<p>Allmusic, it’s o.k. to not agree - I’m not posting here to win agreement, or to convince anyone (it’s totally o.k. with me that there are men who think differently, as it helps me quickly weed out undesirables) - the thing is, one must legitimately strongly believe in, like, love, honor, highly value, and respect themselves, before anyone else - let alone a man who is a romantic interest - will do so.</p>

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<p>Anyone who expects someone else to always pay for everything is unlikely to make a good partner. </p>

<p>Man or woman, don’t we all want to be a prize to someone?</p>

<p>I had a co-worker who we all thought was a great guy, hard worker, fun to be around and considerate. At his wedding ceremony, friends of the couple (nearly all hers) gave testimonials during the service. Most of them told him how lucky he was to have her, while nobody paid him the same complement. Well you know what, she was OK but nothing special. I swear towards the end, I had thoughts about kidnapping him and driving him to Mexico and safety.</p>

<p>They’ve got three kids now. Maybe some guys just breed better in captivity.</p>

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<p>LTS on rape:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=3200344&highlight=rape#post3200344[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=3200344&highlight=rape#post3200344&lt;/a&gt; posts #33, 51, and 54.</p>

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<p>Dadguy, in the scenario you present, and in the absence of any further information, it sounds like SHE is the one who needs rescuing, and desperately so. She married a man who does not even have any friends who will attend, let alone speak up for him, at his own wedding? He has to drill into his rolodex of coworkers to even get anyone to show up? Yikes!!! </p>

<p>If it’s the other way, let’s say, for example, he HAS the friends, and lots of them (outside of work) and they think highly of him, then, why weren’t they on the guest list? Is he so passive and so wimpy that he allowed her to exclude his representation? And so this is what she is stuck with, with three children now? Yuck. I feel really, really sorry for her - but then again - it’s the choice she made…but…if she were MY friend, assuming we were close, I would have been tempted to try to convince her to annul this thing.</p>

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<p>Never did want a sugar daddy. Glad you have your share of boyfriends who are willing to buy you everything, LTS, but I have the real deal in a 20 year marriage, and an equal partnership at that.</p>

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<p>This guy has lots of friends, who were in attendance, but not part of the ceremony, which she apparently controlled. Remember, the testimonies were part of the ceremony.</p>

<p>There was no way she was any more of a catch than he was.</p>

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<p>I always appreciated a man who took the lead with the “courtship” duties. Although I never consciously demanded or even expected it, it seemed to make a difference in how I felt about the guy.</p>

<p>Now that I have two Ds, I really look for that behavior in teenage boys, but I rarely see it. As a parent, I feel better when my daughters are out with a boy I feel can “take care of them,” even though I know they are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves.</p>

<p>It must be some sort of innate survival instinct to desire this behavior.</p>

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<p>I’m trying to raise a gentle person who does happen to be a young man. It even pays off for college recommendations–“well-mannered, generous, easygoing and of the highest personal integrity” surely must sound good to an admissions committee.</p>

<p>I think women who are hostile toward men’s polite gestures are just plain rude and need to learn better manners. Anyone’s offer to do something nice is a good thing and warrants a polite response.</p>

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<p>Obviously it’s correct to raise both boys and girls to be polite, kind and respectful to people from all walks of life.</p>

<p>However, I don’t see the point is raising your sons to treat girls like jewels. Holding the door for girls or not using foul language in front of them is just outdated and likely will make it hard for your sons to understand that girls are really just other people. I’d give my seat for an older lady on the bus (I’m a girl) but I’d do the same if there was an old man, this makes sense, old people have a harder time standing than fit young people. However a boy giving me his seat would be hard to accept. My legs work fine thanks.</p>

<p>When my boyfriend comes over, he says thinks like thank you and please but he wouldn’t shake my parents hands or call them Mr and Mrs. That would be weird and awkward. If he ever held the door for me when there was no logical reason to I would just feel uncomfortable. Girls don’t look for boys who treat them differently anymore, they’re looking for a partner. I don’t see why the opposite is still valued at all.</p>

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<p>I think there are plenty of girls who expect young men to curb the profanity in front of them or to hold the door for them. If a boy came to our house and DIDN’T make eye contact, shake hands, address us as Mr. and Mrs SoandSo we would be having a serious talk with our daughter about this boy’s upbringing.</p>

<p>We expect both of our kids to watch the language, be polite to adults, etc.</p>

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<p>People have different standards of formality. I like my son’s friends to use my first name. They always say thanks for anything and everything, but shaking hands? A hug, maybe. Different strokes…</p>