<p>ohiobassmom: well…you make my point…see what happens when you can’t pass math and get into a program for which you do not qualify. Are you suggesting we expand this type of plan?</p>
<p>In his case, he was full pay so wouldn’t have been affected by this legislation. But LOL :)</p>
<p>Some clarification on AZ - current tuition at all three state U’s hovers around 9K. Cost to live on campus depending on your school and program ranges from around 8K to 12K (some majors and some honors programs require certain fees, differential tuition, certain dorms and meal plans etc.). The bill is talking about tuition only and the ball got rolling because of Michael Crowes’ assertion that 50% of state U. kids pay no tuition; the neglected facts are that those not paying tuition are high merit kids - both in and out of state lured to educational institutions by this free tuition because the state U’s are trying to reach the national average of college educated adults in the state. Their philosophy has been to attract and keep the talent at home.</p>
<p>There are many kids who could commute to state U’s because of proximity - however, those most hurt by this bill are those living in towns that consist of a bar, gas station and interstate highway surrounded by a few mobile homes, DIY rancher types and a whole lot of 'nothin. Many AZ kids would have a fair commute to a CC in outlying areas…and I’m not even getting to that huge reservation in the NE corner of the state.</p>
<p>The author of this bill lives in one of the states wealthiest areas within a 15 minute drive to ASU. There are parts of the Phoenix metro area that would make an ASU commute well over an hour each way, but those are far from where this gentleman lives in both distance and socioeconomic status.</p>
<p>So this 2K increase will, for all but very, very, few mean a 2K increase in student debt to something well over 20K, and in some cases much, much more. This same legislator/bill author has consistently voted down any kind of spending increase for education even though AZ ranks 49th for per pupil spending. He is a very ‘special’ man living in a very pampered suburb of one of the hardest hit states in the current economic meltdown.</p>
<p>FYI - there is also legislation making it’s way to the AZ governor’s desk allowing all with concealed weapons permits to carry their guns onto AZ college campuses - as opposed to locking them in their cars. </p>
<p>I honestly can’t think of a better 1-2 knockout punch to keep AZ in the educational dark ages. Hopefully wiser heads will ultimately prevail, either in the current legislative session or after the next election - or after the first campus shootout where police have no idea who the bad guy is because everybody has a gun. I’m secretly rooting for some of the AZ college kids to post something satirical on U-tube to embarrass the adults behind this nonesense into a moment of clarity.</p>
<p>Think of AZ - remember Tombstone, AZ seems to be working towards a modern recreation.</p>
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<p>It’s a short article, you could read it if you want, which is why I also added the link. The gist of the article is that it is EXACTLY the financials of everyday living for these students which gets in the way of their finishing, that they would also have an extra 2,000 available is laughable. The article makes it abundantly clear that the students without familial assistance and support are exactly the students who are dropping out, and this falls down along socio-economic lines. It’s a poverty trap.</p>
<p>Deitz, you seem to have some agenda, other than figuring out how to get the best education for everyone, and I’m not going to “get” into it. Canada’s population, while smaller, is not “more homogoneous” than ours, and they manage to keep costs down. I think we might look into that, at least.</p>
<p>poetgrl:
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<p>Wow, so having a different view or opinion of this situation is an agenda (and yes, it’s clear from the way it’s phrased that this is not a compliment). Simply dismissing the issue of system scalability does not make it invalid, it just makes it something you don’t want to look at. Now…I guess that is also and agenda.</p>
<p>poetgrl,</p>
<p>I confess that I didn’t read the article - I only read your excellent snippet which indicated it was the balancing of family and school at the same time that was the main issue - not paying the tuition. This makes perfect sense since many/most students without the means don’t pay the tuition out of pocket and actually pay it after they graduate. </p>
<p>Unfortunately this is one of the areas people need to consider before having children since it’s obviously easier to go to college full time before having a family than afterwards. Is anyone proposing that the taxpayers should support the family as long as the person attends college in addition to whatever other subsidies are already in place for the student? I haven’t seen anyone say that but if that’s the problem per the snippet, not tuition, then that’s what would need to be addressed to come up with a solution for it. People will always have a way to make things more difficult for themselves and putting the cart before the horse is one of them. Given that, there are examples of people who have managed to make it through college even if they have a family and I think most of them would likely concur that it makes it all more difficult.</p>
<p>How would having to pay back the $2k/year in monthly installments after graduating from college have any effect on causing the student to have to drop out due to financials of daily living or lack of familial support before they graduate? It has no effect.</p>
<p>Dietz–</p>
<p>Do you believe that students born into poverty in this country recieve the same basic academic opportunities to learn K-12, that those born into comfortable economic circumstances do?</p>
<p>Becuase you say in one post that someone who needs remediation in some subjects should not be in college. So, what you are saying is, if you are unfortunate enough to have been born into poverty and recieved a sub-par education becuase of this (and we absolutely KNOW this is the case), regardless of your true intellectual ability, all things being equal, you should now go to trade school. So, Jimmy with the average intellect, but the wealthy parents, and the tutors and prep work “should” go on to college, while Tom, born into poverty and a bad school district, dodging bullets on the way home from school, but with the amazing intellect should become a welder.</p>
<p>I don’t see why this is a good idea, not for them, and not for our country. </p>
<p>So, what can we do to educate our bright kids who start out behind the line? Or don’t you care?</p>
<p>GladDad–</p>
<p>I think the issue, at least for me, anyway, is why ADD to this burden? </p>
<p>These people don’t need to put “skin in the game” in order to care about graduating. They have no skin left for the “game.”</p>
<p>My goal would be to reduce impediments to a college degree for everyone who wants to pursue higher education. I don’t think most of these people are saying “where’s my free stuff.” I think they are saying, “I just can’t add one more thing.”</p>
<p>It seems as if one more thing, at this level of overextension, can be a tipping point.</p>
<p>But, I think we may just have to say we have a different view. I’m not going to change my mind on the opinion that educating everyone we can is our best bet for a prosperous future, and you are probably not going to change your mind either. So, there we have it. It happens.</p>
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<p>Um…no. I said there should be this type of training/education available in HS because not everyone is suited for college. If a student actually makes it to senior year of HS and is unable to read/write at grade level, then no - passing them on to college is not a kind or supportive thing to do. In fact, it has been the consistent passing upward without needed skills which caused the problem to begin with. It is an awful expensive way to ‘come up to speed’. I would be all for FREE FREE FREE (yes FREE) summer session to address skills which are lacking. Have volunteers/ teach for America members/ come and conduct these sessions. Have individualized attention given to those students who are eager to pursue the next level. And what is so terrible in attending CC for a 'catch up ’ year. Not sure about other state but CA has a CC to UC transfer guarantee for students who complete the needed credits at the CC level. This allows for matriculation from a 4 year institution with a much lower cost since the transfer happens in Junior year. </p>
<p>And as for the dig…‘don’t you care’…yes another nice way to try and shut down a different view…play the ‘she’s a big bad entitled ogre’ card. Nice! That actually happens on a very predictable basis on CC.</p>
<p>“Unfortunately this is one of the areas people need to consider before having children since it’s obviously easier to go to college full time before having a family than afterward.”</p>
<p>Right. And it’s something they should consider before having PARENTS. (So many people seem to choose theirs so poorly. Oh, and ditch the elderly ones, please!) Or siblings they need to care for. Or husbands (or wives) who go into the military and come back shadows of their former selves. They really shouldn’t have married for them, and shouldn’t care for them now. After all, working half-time at Wal-Mart, they really can’t anyway…</p>
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<p>Actually, you are the one playing the “victim” in our communication, right now.</p>
<p>If you care and have some ideas, put them out there. I’d love to hear them. If you don’t care? That’s fine, too. I wouldn’t think you were an “ogre” We all have different things we care about. This is one of mine.</p>
<p>Some care more about clean water in Africa, for example, my youngest, and some care more about funding for the arts, right now, my oldest. My H is passionate about the environment, to the point where I find it annoying, and I REALLY DON’T always care about plastic bottles. I don’t. </p>
<p>So, yeah. I just make sure to recycle because of some bird or fish or something he seems to be concerned about at the moment.</p>
<p>mini…so, you are implying that people do not have a say in when they have offspring? No, you can not choose your parents or your sibblings, but you can choose when to have a spouse and when to have children. If anger came through a screen I think your post could have semi melted mine. Is it really so challenging to have a polite exchange of ideas?</p>
<p>poetgrl: I did make some suggestions for how to address the issue.</p>
<p>A very good start might be to implement a system similar to CA - where the community colleges functioning as a comparatively inexpensive vehicle to firm up certain skills. One of the largest class offerings at our local CC is an ESL reading/writing course. One of the biggest extra costs in education is books. Frankly I think RICO should be enacted upon the text book industry. There is no reason a 100 page loose leaf shrink wrapped ‘book’ should cost $170 (yes DD has had to buy a few of these). </p>
<p>As for the trade schools…well I am going on personal experience. I have a nephew who floundered in HS. However, he loved working on cars, bikes, etc. There was nothing in the HS program which supported or encouraged these interests. This young man had absolutely no desire to continue formal schooling. He did attend a technical training school (expense and he has loans) and is now very happily and quite gainfully employed. I have a bet with DH that this young man will in only a few years own his own shop.</p>
<p>I don’t understand the condescending attitude that often comes across when discussing someone working in a trade. My dad (with an MBA from Europe) worked as a machinist when he immigrated in order to support his family. I still hurt my neck because I look so far up to him. We live in what would be considered an upper middle class. I have a neighbor who is a painting contractor and another who is a general contractor. </p>
<p>Oh and mini: yes, the nephew waited to get married until after he was stable and they are now expecting their first youngun. This after watching what happened to Dad and another uncle who sort of did things in reverse.</p>
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<p>This is relying heavily on volunteers, but I do think the summer sessions are a ‘good idea’, since these are kids who won’t be offered the summer enrichment opportunities we offer our own kids, anyway, to give them an advantage.</p>
<p>Does California still offer gauranteed transfer? I know we do in Illinios, but I was under the impression you guys were ending that? I could be wrong.</p>
<p>But, I don’t see exactly how your suggestion addresses the question of people who already cannot afford to live their lives paying high tuition rates. I could be missing something.</p>
<p>“mini…so, you are implying that people do not have a say in when they have offspring?”</p>
<p>Thanks to Planned Parenthood, they do!</p>
<p>I’m old enough to know that people find themselves in circumstances they never could have predicted in advance, for reasons they may not be fully aware, in ways about which they have no control. I have worked with enough married military families where they decided to have kids - a statement of belief in their future - only to have the husband (usually) come home and unable to care for the family for a very long time, and watch the government throw the entire family out on the scrapheap. And, of course, the wife - the primary caregiver, bureaucratic-obstacle buster, mother, and Wal-Mart worker on foodstamps doesn’t DESERVE to get a tuition break that might help (even if just a little) bring the family out of poverty - No, instead, I should pay their welfare bill, and compete for attention with them at the emergency room when it is their only source of health care. </p>
<p>I’ve seen families where we’ve scrimped and saved for college for our kids, where they’ve enrolled in great schools, only to have the parents (ME!) beset by massive heart attacks (I died), and aggressive breast cancer (my wife), and thank heavens to my GOVERNMENT-SUPPORTED health care and a very wealthy college institution, my kids came away okay (for which I am eternally grateful) - when so many others are not so lucky. </p>
<p>Angry? You don’t even know the half of it. And if you have a problem with that, well I say, get a life.</p>
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We’re just going in circles on this. You keep coming up with a scenario that those affected are taking care of parents, siblings, maybe kids, and now have added on - returned from the military a shadow of their former selves. I referred in my above post to likely the most probable case of a person attending college full time who also has family considerations where they also have to ‘take care of the family’ and that’s someone who had kids and then decided to go to college, in that order. </p>
<p>And again, regardless of all the corner case scenarios you can dream up none of them affect the fact that there is no financial impact on them before college graduation whether they have to pay back $8K 
in loans after they graduate and when they’re in a better financial position and if attending college full time for 4 years isn’t going to put them in a better financial position then that 's whole different issue.</p>
<p>poetgrl’s basic point I understand - free to the student, i.e. paid by those paying taxes, college education for all, just like HS. I don’t necessarily agree with it, at least not without having answers for all of the aforementioned implications, but I understand her position.</p>
<p>mini: I feel quite blessed in my life… but appreciate your concern. </p>
<p>However, the level of anger which comes across is easily deflected by any potential recipient by simply hitting the ‘quit’ key. It is however destructive to the individual who carries it, and it is also destructive to those who are affected by it’s energy wave. I say this with no sarcasm or snarkiness. I’ve seen it destroy lives. That was the basis of my question - can we not have a polite conversation. At least that is why I come to CC. If yelling and fist pounding was desired, I could just turn on the evening news.</p>
<p>How we are treating our military is a disgrace. On this we are in wholehearted agreement.</p>
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<p>Dietz, I have no issue with the trades. My father was a GC and entrepenuer and did quite well, and I have plenty of friends who are in the trades, by choice. My youngest may well go to culinary school, and I have no issue with that, at all.</p>
<p>What I have issue with is the idea that someone “should” go into the trades if they can’t afford college if what they want is to go to college. JMO</p>
<p>Dietz - Not angry at you in the least. Angry at the way legislators treating poor folks who are just trying to better themselves? You bet. I’d like to know how many of them are sending their kids to trade schools. </p>
<p>“How we are treating our military is a disgrace. On this we are in wholehearted agreement.”</p>
<p>Ah, but look at the details. The military man could get an exemption from paying tuition. Not his wife, though. </p>
<p>GGD - you keep on saying $8k in loans. I’m seeing $50-60k or more (sometimes much more) in loans, and then $10k added on top of that. That’s not at all uncommon these days - $25k is about average we are told for the students, and $25-$35k for the parents. But if there isn’t a paying parent…</p>
<p>Poetgrl: It was not my intent to suggest someone be shuttled off to the trades if they are unable to afford college. As exemplified by my nephew…these trade schools are a far cry from inexpensive.</p>
<p>I do however think it is a gross unfairness to make each and every HS student aspire toward college, leaving them with the impression that if they choose another path they are by default a failure. IMHO, currently there is no other path except the push for college. This in turn of course pushes up the COA - it’s still a case of supply and demand. </p>
<p>I think that for many many reasons it is not ‘safe’ to discuss differences in peoples innate abilities and interests. This subject brings a whole boat load and then some of ugly history with it. To broach this topic - especially here on CC - brings out the best of the name callers. </p>
<p>As far as I know the TAG (transfer agreement guarantee) is still in place. At least it’s still listed in the current CC course publication. By attending CC you reduce the number of years one pays the much much higher cost of a 4 year institution from 4 to 2. </p>
<p>I think we have a vast pool of untapped volunteers, especially those looking for a post retirement second ‘career’. And most K-12 public school facilities sit empty during the summer months. I for one would be happy to participate in such an effort. </p>
<p>And then there are private grass roots efforts. My Catholic all girls HS has ‘adopted’ a number of girls at a local very low income, predominantly hispanic school. They are guaranteed entrance to, and full tuition at my HS if they enter into a program in 6th (I think) grade. This program requires a longer school day, community service hours given to their school (this give them some skin in the game), and it requires that parents participate a certain number of hours. As far as I know, these ladies all go on to 4 year institutions. </p>
<p>This same HS started a women’s giving circle. It is very simple, each member contributes 1K a year. No more is allowed. They have a very streamlined grant request process whereby organizations which support women may ask for funding. We’ve supported safe houses, battered women’s shelters and scholarships for low income women, after school programs which provide safe havens from gang etc. We grow slowly each year. It’s an attitude of grass roots support instead of government bestowing charity. Somewhere in that paradigm is a partial solution to the poverty/education access problem.</p>